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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#226: Oct 1st 2011 at 10:33:02 AM

Which I think it was a bad idea.tongue And probably the reason it got written off.

Thinking now, Morrision's run would work much better if it was an out of canon thing. Like an alternate near future of the franchise.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#227: Oct 1st 2011 at 10:47:40 AM

You know, thinking about all the points you made, I will concede that Morrison seems to have quite the ego on him. His run is the Grand Finale of the franchise. His death of Magneto is the final death of Magneto, that's it, no one can use him again. His grand mastermind character is the guy behind literally everything.

But hey, at least he subtly expresses his conceit in his writing, rather than just being a dick to people like Moore, Byrne, and Quesada.

NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
#228: Oct 1st 2011 at 2:54:32 PM

" Thinking now, Morrision's run would work much better if it was an out of canon thing. Like an alternate near future of the franchise. "

Alternately, it could be realized that canon is inherently flexible with the times, and to pretend otherwise is to miss the forest for the trees. There's nothing to the existence of Mutant Town that suggests the Morlocks didn't exist, the Morlocks have been gone for many years since the Mutant Massacre, and even if they did exist concurrently, Mutant Town is the story being told right now (or then, since we're talking about older comics). The present story should always get priority.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#229: Oct 1st 2011 at 3:54:10 PM

[up]The thing is, as far I remember, it was not like the mutant town was something overwhelming recent (as in, just poped into existence). It was already somewhat established. It haven't passed that much time since the massacre (about five years, I guess?), so a mutant town being there is just awkward. Furthermore, there were suddenly much more mutants then suggested previously (this is not Morrison's fault, alone). And they suddenly have a subculture. This is inconsistent with they being barely known a few years ago (by the 80's, they were something most people have heard, but few have ever seem).

Yeah, time in comic is flexible, but writers should works with the previous history. If they wish to invent something new, they should make sure it fits with what happened before (although this should also be a job of the editors).

[up][up]I don't understand what you mean by "expresses his conceit" but, while I agree with the ego thing, I don't deny he is an excellent writer. I think he took some wrong decisions and made some glaring mistakes, but even his mistakes alone are not as bad as some other X Men writers. And what he did right kicked the ass of most X Men stories written after him.

Btw, back to "discarding his work", it is not like the editorial did so in spite to him or something. They clearly didn't agreed with some decisions he took and changed that away (which is their job). But many things of his run was kept. Even today, the whole 'school' aspect is closer to what he wrote then to what it was before. Not to mention Emma Frost is stil an X-Woman and a fairly important one (too important, some may say, as she overshadow figures like Storm).

edited 1st Oct '11 3:59:46 PM by Heatth

Alkthash Was? Since: Jan, 2001
Was?
#230: Oct 1st 2011 at 4:02:43 PM

Hrm, just an idea, but after Schism finishes up next month, what do the lot of you say to keeping this thread around as a general thread for the X-Men books?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#231: Oct 1st 2011 at 4:09:18 PM

[up] It seems to have turned into a general X-Men thread, anyway. At least, that's what I was using it as.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#232: Oct 1st 2011 at 4:09:26 PM

Wait, do you mean this is not the general X Men thread? tongue

Seriously, though, it might be better just rename this thread. We have already been using it generally, anyway.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#233: Oct 1st 2011 at 7:12:22 PM

So, I may have started a new meme at the CBR X-Boards. There's now a whole thread talking about how great a bunch of background characters named only in supplemental materials are. I was the one who originally provided the board with a list of said characters. grin

NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
#234: Oct 2nd 2011 at 11:43:26 AM

But why is it so important that the franchise's history be respected to such a degree as to prohibit new stories? The old continuity isn't what's being published in contemporary issues, and while it still exists in the Essentials collections and other reprint formats, I assume that people know going in that these are old 80's comics. If it's so important that no aspect of the old comics be contradicted, why not just stop publishing new comics?

Morrison changed the dynamic of the mutant race because the old setup— relatively few mutants, and even fewer who were just people instead of superheroes or supervillains— didn't work with contemporary identity politics. With millions of mutants, you can still tell stories that are hero vs. villain fare, but you can also tell more stories exploring what it means to be a mutant. It may cast organizations like the Morlocks into question upon scrutiny, but you don't have to scrutinize those books; they inform the current comics, but they're not the current comics.

Marvel in general has moved towards a looser approach to their past continuity, and for the most part it's worked out quite well. The Winter Soldier is the poster boy for how these retcons can be a great success.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#235: Oct 2nd 2011 at 3:24:27 PM

[up]Because that is how american super heroes comics works.

Also, the main problem is not the change itself. Is how the change is inconsistent with what was previously known. It was way too abrupt. No smooth change. It was just "this is how things is now". Which is bad no matter how you cut, even if the changes themselves were good.

Also, have you ever wondered what the other writers thought about it? I mean, as far I know Morrison were working mostly independently with carta blanche. Maybe "reverting" his change was not only the editorial choice but also the writers choice. X Men is not Morrison's franchise.

NitztheBloody Nitz the Bloody from SO CAL Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Nitz the Bloody
#236: Oct 2nd 2011 at 4:58:15 PM

Of course, none of the original Marvel books played by that rule, as Stan Lee and his collaborators' willingness to develop the characters was one of the main values put them ahead of the Distinguished Competition. Nor did the most renowned runs in those characters' history; Frank Miller's Daredevil, Chris Claremont's X-Men, the Roy Thomas Avengers, etc. And some of the most popular and interesting Marvel books of the previous decade were the Ultimate Universe titles, that flagrantly refused to let Status Quo have any kind of deity status.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Canidaemon I found porn! Since: Aug, 2010
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#239: Oct 5th 2011 at 1:20:50 PM

[up] A former student at the Xavier Institute and a friend of Quentin Quire's. He has one of the more *ahem* distinctive mutations among the students. He was seen in Schism #5 today on the jet away from Utopia with the other X-kids who took Wolverine's side.

Canidaemon I found porn! Since: Aug, 2010
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#240: Oct 5th 2011 at 2:24:58 PM

Dunno if I should just ask to be spoiled on what happened in Schism #5 or wait.

WOOF!
Canidaemon I found porn! Since: Aug, 2010
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#241: Oct 6th 2011 at 7:01:20 AM

Read Schism #5 last night. Very underwhelmed, is how I can sum it up. The death of the Sentinel just happened with none of the drama it was building up to be. It fell down just like every other sentinel. Nimrod this sentinel ain't.

The only thing I'm grateful for is that both Scott and Logan came out unscathed in the sense that neither became Civil War Iron Man. They just took the ones that agreed with them and parted ways. I guess that counts as a good thing, even if it does reflect poorly on the story when you're measuring it on how it didn't screw up.

All in all, it did what it was intended to do: separate the teams into two groups. We got nothing new or cool or interesting out of it, and don't get me started on the Heckfire Clubhouse.

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bladeofdarkness Since: Jan, 2001
#242: Oct 7th 2011 at 2:35:45 PM

I can't help but feel that the whole punch up between Cycs and Wolvie was actually to the books detriment.

the conflict would have worked equally well if they didn't end up getting violent and it makes both seem incredibly silly given that they do it in the middle of a sentinel attack.

the final "break" had nothing to do with the actual fight, and actually came across as perfectly reasonable, which is why i honestly, think they should have nixed the fight scene and spent more time on the sentinel fight rather then spend a 1/3 of the issue being about them beating each other.


on another issue, i still think the whole "kids shouldn't be on the front line" idea feels Out of Character coming from wolverine.

especially since his original(kitty) present (Hisako) and Future (Idie) Kid Sidekick are all going with him.

edited 7th Oct '11 2:38:09 PM by bladeofdarkness

TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#243: Oct 9th 2011 at 9:09:42 AM

Yeah, the ending of Schism was the sort that will leave you sitting there wondering who was right. Cyclops and Wolverine did make good points. Some people say Cyclops was right, while others say Wolverine was right. It's true that the Mutants need a leader to make decisions for all of them, but they also need a teacher. Maybe it is Out of Character for Wolverine to be put in the role of teacher, but what about Cyclops? Can you imagine him being a teacher?

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Canidaemon I found porn! Since: Aug, 2010
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#244: Oct 10th 2011 at 6:54:57 AM

[up] Cyclops did quite well as a teacher back in New X-Men. Still, he's more headmaster material than teacher.

On a positive note, I just finished reading X-Men #19. Now THIS is a great X-men team-up comic. It had good action, the dialogue was funny and everyone in either team had counterpart they could play off with: Emma/Sue, Nemesis/Reed, Wolverine/The Thing, Magneto/Dr. Doom.

I really needed that last issue. It practically washed away the horrible aftertaste of Schism.

WOOF!
Alkthash Was? Since: Jan, 2001
Was?
#245: Oct 10th 2011 at 1:49:56 PM

We all know the reason that team up was loved by fans. The inevitable pissing match between Magneto and Dr. Doom.

Canidaemon I found porn! Since: Aug, 2010
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#246: Oct 10th 2011 at 1:56:31 PM

[up]It was surprisingly tame, if you ask me. Just really good banter, especially from DOOM!

The REAL pissing match was between Nemesis and Reed. Magneto even lampshades it.

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TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#247: Oct 11th 2011 at 12:35:25 PM

I got a case of Fridge Brilliance today. When Cyclops taunted Wolverine about Jean Grey never loving him, I thought Cyclops was being childish and immature. Now I'm beginning to think that he was giving Wolverine a small speech that combines What the Hell, Hero? and a Hannibal Lecture. Wolverine's response could be considered a combination of What the Hell, Hero? and Shut Up, Hannibal! right back (or simply Wolverin giving Cyclops a Hannibal Lecture in return). Am I on to something here, or am I off? wild mass guess

edited 11th Oct '11 12:46:09 PM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
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#248: Oct 11th 2011 at 12:55:17 PM

[up] Or you just try to explain a childish, immature and pure stupid action on both parts as something that isn't the aforementioned.

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TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#249: Oct 11th 2011 at 2:49:19 PM

True. Those two really grabbed the Conflict Ball and held it tight in the fourth issue, didn't they? At least they let it go and approached the issue with with maturity worthy of adults in the fifth issue. smile

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
bladeofdarkness Since: Jan, 2001
#250: Oct 11th 2011 at 8:51:53 PM

but if you want a case of Fridge Brilliance then check this one out.

the Hellfire club kids that are such an annoyance to most people (since its hard to take them seriously) are actually the perfect example of why Cyclops is right and Wolverine is wrong.

Wolverine's entire "their just kids, they should stay out of the fight" line of thought is disturbed somewhat by the fact that the enemies are ALSO just kids, who managed to not only take down a team of the X-men's most powerful members, but also cause the whole deal with the Sentinel.

a situation, i must add, which was resolved due to the actions of the X-kids rather then the grown ups (who were busy beating each other senseless).

"just kids" doesn't cut it anymore.

edited 11th Oct '11 8:52:34 PM by bladeofdarkness


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