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overhaul ? New Crowner (9/13/11): Lolicon

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#101: Sep 5th 2011 at 10:23:18 PM

Oh, right, I misread that. Yeah, it is unlikely that lolicon would be a female character. The lolicon is the pedophile.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#102: Sep 5th 2011 at 10:24:44 PM

[up] Eh there are a few female ones, they are played very differently though far more subtext.

edited 5th Sep '11 10:25:24 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#103: Sep 5th 2011 at 10:26:55 PM

I said unlikely. Anyway, do we have a good name for the Evil Pedophile trope? Should we just go with that? If so we can just run it through ykttw and then when launched immediately request a page lock for it.

Also, Shotaro Complex should be a redirect for the Lolita Complex trope, I think.

edited 5th Sep '11 10:27:54 PM by Arha

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#104: Sep 5th 2011 at 11:00:40 PM

There's quite a few female lolicons. Actually, I'd say that if you're going to play it for comedy, its much more likely they'll be female. Its less "creepy" for most people.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#105: Sep 5th 2011 at 11:13:15 PM

[up] Now that I think about it yeah.

A Shotacon is usually treated two ways

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#106: Sep 5th 2011 at 11:34:26 PM

The lolicon's gender doesn't matter. Point being they're the one attracted to the little girl and not the little girl themselves.

bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#107: Sep 7th 2011 at 12:40:41 PM

While lolicon is a term outside this wiki, it gets a lot of misuse. We might need to redlink this.

2025: the year it all ends?
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#108: Sep 7th 2011 at 1:41:03 PM

I have made a crowner here that lists every option I can think of. Almost none of them are mutually exclusive. The only thing I thought of that was not added as an option is that of cutting the article completely as I have seen no serious reasoning for said argument.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#109: Sep 7th 2011 at 1:48:43 PM

Most of those aren't mutually exclusive, though. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just...pointing it out.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#110: Sep 7th 2011 at 1:49:47 PM

I'm aware of that and mentioned it. It's simply a matter of how much information we want to devote to the subject.

Edit: Frankly, the most important one on there is probably redefining the current Lolicon trope because otherwise an obvious trope isn't going to be covered.

edited 7th Sep '11 1:52:50 PM by Arha

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#111: Sep 7th 2011 at 1:53:06 PM

I could have sworn your post was shorter when I looked at it last, and it didn't say that.

Oh well, nevermind then.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#112: Sep 7th 2011 at 3:06:47 PM

Quick question: is there such a thing as a good pedophile? I would have thought that something which is, by definition, negative would not need the descriptor of "evil".

I suppose one that is getting help and trying to fix the fault could be 'good', but I think that would be more of an aversion, since I'm pretty sure they're by far the minority in both fiction and life.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#113: Sep 7th 2011 at 3:27:11 PM

Oh, no, lolicon isn't a 'good' pedophile. It's creepiness played for laughs. The evil pedophile thing is more the villainous pedophile.

edited 7th Sep '11 3:27:26 PM by Arha

ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#114: Sep 7th 2011 at 3:54:03 PM

What I mean is that there's no point specifying it in the trope name. If someone's a villain that covers villainiousness, while pedophilia covers a particular bad thign about them. Its like calling a trope "Evil Kitten Torturer".

Routerie Since: Oct, 2011
#115: Sep 7th 2011 at 4:00:32 PM

I suppose a pedophile who doesn't act on his urges but researches medicine would be a "good pedophile".

The eventual page name would need an "evil" because we're describing a portrayal rather than just a sexual preference. Pedophile would be People Lusting For Children Who Sit On Chairs unless works use it in a specific way.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#116: Sep 7th 2011 at 4:02:21 PM

I think that the closest that a Lolicon can get to being "good" outside of highly-idealistic (some say unrealistic) romance stories (mostly fanfics and doujins) is that his pedophilia is strictly passive - he never gets physical, or declares his love openly, or anything similar, he just admires his underaged Love Interest from afar, keeps his distance, and makes sure that nobody has reason to call the cops on him.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#117: Sep 7th 2011 at 4:06:01 PM

Oh. I just put the Evil Pedophile thing as a wikiword for emphasis so we would be absolutely sure what the point of the trope was.

Hm, if Lolicon doesn't get rewritten to be about lolicon characters I suppose the whole thing would just get turned into a useful notes page then? Not really what I was expecting.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#118: Sep 7th 2011 at 4:10:02 PM

Um, lets not forget that not all works are modern works! If you look at historical works, you may find a completely different picture.

Heck, you only have to go back as far as the sixties to find all sorts of references to non-evil rock stars who like 13-year-old groupies. (Though younger than 13 does seem to be sort of taboo even for that era.) Go back another century or three, and things look quite different.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#119: Sep 7th 2011 at 6:32:45 PM

Regarding "good" pedophiles, Soujiro comes to mind - has a thing for younger girls(which may stem from his late wife) but's still presented as a good person. Doesn't stop him from getting creepy, though, and his daughter shows concern he could get arrested.

Also, are we sure that with the Lolicon/Evil Pedophile split the latter's still going to be Flame Bait? They do tend to be very Obviously Evil.

edited 7th Sep '11 6:33:05 PM by 20LogRoot10

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#120: Sep 7th 2011 at 10:45:40 PM

^ It's apparently been flame bait before and Madrugada and Fast Eddie (I pmed him earlier) have expressed reservations about the trope because of it.

By the way, I can't force the issue, but I can still be curious. Tell me, someone who is against redefining Lolicon to be a character trope, could you explain why? I kind of wasn't expecting this result and I wrote several of the crowner options on the assumption that it would end up positive. Still, it's a character trope with very real examples that do not fall under the proposed trope about villainous/evil pedophiles or whatever.

edited 7th Sep '11 10:45:53 PM by Arha

Antheia Whatever of Breath (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Whatever of Breath
#121: Sep 9th 2011 at 10:19:39 AM

Suggesting Evil Paedophile Character or Evil Paedophiliac Character as the name for that trope. A long name that isn't too easy to use in a sentence might make misuse less likely.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#122: Sep 9th 2011 at 10:21:10 AM

Second and third option result in having the same information in two places, which is pointless. Would the correct thing to do therefore be to use the one with more votes and simply not touch the article?

IanExMachina The Paedofinder General from Gone with the Chickens Since: Jul, 2009
The Paedofinder General
#123: Sep 11th 2011 at 2:08:28 PM

Heck, you only have to go back as far as the sixties to find all sorts of references to non-evil rock stars who like 13-year-old groupies.

The current Age of Consent in Spain is 13.
So you could make an argument that what would be seen as a Paedo in culture is normal in another, so the Evil modifier is needed to imply abuse etc.

By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of paedophilia!
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#124: Sep 11th 2011 at 2:10:25 PM

Only the top two have a supermajority. Should we just go with those?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
IanExMachina The Paedofinder General from Gone with the Chickens Since: Jul, 2009
The Paedofinder General
#125: Sep 11th 2011 at 2:16:06 PM

I guess so, it looks like the top option is definitely super agreed with.

By the powers invested in me by tabloid-reading imbeciles, I pronounce you guilty of paedophilia!

SingleProposition: Lolicon
13th Sep '11 7:30:13 PM

Crown Description:

This crowner is to determine whether the trope Lolicon should be an article regarding a particular character type. If it is not a character type, the current information on the page will be moved to a Useful Notes page about the lolicon industry.

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