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overhaul ? New Crowner (9/13/11): Lolicon

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DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#76: Aug 31st 2011 at 2:59:55 AM

And a paedophilia trope page may also have to be necessary. This could be done easily, with a locked page and an article written in such a way as to avoid deploying troops to the fields of that dreaded morality battleground. By providing an analysis of the way the trope is used in media, and mentioning the way actual paedophiles are viewed in culture (WITHOUT TAKING A STANCE) in order to explain why the trope is used that way. Nobody would be able to reasonalby object to this unless they were willing to basically ignore reality.

Such a page could also contain the Lolita/Lolicon trope as a subtrope, renamed or not, we just have to make it a point to expound on culture. Not Otaku culture mind you, Japanese/Russian/American/English ect. culture as per wherever the trope is specific. Without cultural differences and actual differences within the trope noted to set it apart from others, there's no reason to play up distinction, and thus no reason for the page.

  • In case my rambling isn't making any sense, I'm saying we have to make sure subtropes/tropes are actually different before we try to play up distinction i.e. by giving it a seperate name.

We don't have step on anybody's toes by outright stating that paedophilia is wrong, even though I'm personally somewhat shocked that we even have to worry about offending people by saying that.

But yeah, I'm sorry, we ought to be describing how to fix this particular trope. I'm getting ahead of myself.

...

edited 31st Aug '11 4:47:52 AM by DisasterGrind

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#77: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:10:11 AM

Just wondering, why is this called Lolicon, not Lolicom? I don't know, it sounds odd and I checked the headscratchers page and it said it was a spelling error and is that it or is there something more to it?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#78: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:18:10 AM

[up]

Quirk of the Japanese language, basically.

The only way you can end a word in a consonant in Japanese is if it ends in "N", so frequently when they go and star doing their word smashing, Ms get turned into Ns, since "roricon" is, apparently, preferable to "roricomu"

*shrugs*

Whatever floats their boat.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#79: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:46:40 AM

[up]...Japanese alphabets have some weaknesses, apparently.

edited 31st Aug '11 3:52:23 AM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#80: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:48:53 AM

[up]

*shrugs*

Thats just how it works.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#81: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:55:52 AM

Now to get back to the topic, I don't see the OP's issue. I thought the term lolicon is widely used both in western and Japanese culture?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#82: Aug 31st 2011 at 4:22:49 AM

The issue here is that the trope and its usage across the site are broken in such a way that several tropes are amalgamated into one and are referenced using the name of a particular trope when this should not be the case.

It also doen't help that said trope is in itself very poorly defined.

edited 31st Aug '11 7:21:14 AM by DisasterGrind

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#83: Aug 31st 2011 at 8:44:10 AM

"Lolicon"/"Roricon" is derived from "rorita conpurekusu", romaji for "lolita complex".

@Arha's list: I'd say that #3 is only true for portrayals that aren't Deconstructions of the usual trope, or don't involve Darker and Edgier.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#84: Aug 31st 2011 at 10:53:15 AM

As in, the situation may first be set up to be harmless lolicon shenanigans but then it's pointed out to the audience 'Hey, this is pedophilia idiots, of course it's not harmless?' kind of thing?

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#85: Aug 31st 2011 at 10:56:14 AM

I was under the impression this was just an exampleless definition page, like Kayfabe, and thus shouldn't be linked unless its actually mentioned. Was that wrong?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#86: Aug 31st 2011 at 1:31:30 PM

[up][up] Yeah, that's sounds like a Deconstruction alright. Of course, that should only apply in media where the played-straight version is the norm, which excludes Western media due to the default attitude being a blanket demonization of all pedophilia(cs) - or even those whose attitude to children bears the barest superficial resemblence to pedophilia - on principle, regardless of whether or not they pose any threat at all.

[up] I think it's been determined that there is a trope behind Lolicon, and we're trying to define it correctly. It probably will remain exampleless, however.

edited 31st Aug '11 1:32:58 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#87: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:27:06 PM

[up][up]The problem is that my posts in this thread have provided more information -and more accurate information- about lolicon than the actual trope page. As a definition/explaination, it does not fullfil it's purpose.

Note: I henceforth the age range I will be using when referign to lolicon is 13 (the approximate end of pubescence) and under.

From what I gather, the reason lolita complexes are funny is basically, "Look at that creepy weirdo, he can't get laid by a woman!". Same way that an otaku

; the stereotype/archetype is that of an obsessive person who is socially inept, and likely unkempt. Whether or not you find such things amusing is up to you, same as with a Punch-and-Judy show.

The reasons there is so much pornographic media pandering to it is that most of the people who consume it (in Japan) spend much of their time locked away at home (a serious problem in Japan) reading manga watching anime*

. There is also no/few other countries where such things would be allowed to be made — even in Japan, live models/actors were banned over a decade ago, and animated/drawn stuff seems to have simply slipped through the cracks. And there are some strong movements to fill in those cracks.

The probable reasons for the lolita complex phenominon, in addition to those I stated earlier, is likely a combination of the prevalence of the cuteness meme in Japan and the isolating aspects of their culture. This leads to people who don't know how to meet/hook up with anyone and idealise cuteness and immaturity.

EDIT: Maybe I should draft a replacement page and send it to Fast Eddie...

edited 31st Aug '11 3:27:57 PM by ggfd

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#88: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:33:04 PM

^ Well, before you do that, we should finish figuring out what we want the page to be about. I don't mind rewriting the page so long as there's no attempt to made to lump in the other view of pedophilia.

Is it about the character, or the industry? Or about the underaged person in question? I think it ought to be about the first, but the page as written seems to be more about the industry while it seems to be linked to more in regards to the last one.

ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#89: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:50:58 PM

[up]By character, do you mean the sexualised subject or the one attracted to her? The former seems more common in troper use.

If it would mean something actually happens and the important information is covered, "Lolicon" could refer to that, and something like "Lolita Complex" could cover the wider topic of the origins, industry etc.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#90: Aug 31st 2011 at 3:55:24 PM

The problem with Token Loli is really alot of the examples arnt quite "token" so they are thrown into Loli.

Fixing up Token Loli would probably fix that issue.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#91: Aug 31st 2011 at 4:05:15 PM

^^ The one attracted, not the one who is the object of attraction herself. Reason being that if someone says 'I am a lolicon' rather than meaning that they're a little girl it means they're attracted to them.

edited 31st Aug '11 4:06:09 PM by Arha

ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#92: Aug 31st 2011 at 4:17:24 PM

I don't see there being much content for a page about characters with lolita complexes beyond, "A character who likes lolicon. May be Played For Laughs, depicted with sinister tones, or catered to".

Better would be a page about the sexualisation of children and mentioning that the term is also used to refer to people who are into it. Much more content, much more room for analysis, and much more useful.

Token Loli is like token woman or token black or token asian: one individual chucked in to have someone who falls into that category. Related, but not really relevant here.

edited 31st Aug '11 4:20:46 PM by ggfd

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#93: Aug 31st 2011 at 4:59:49 PM

Let's not get into token loli right now, please. Maybe later when we have this part sorted out.

The thing is that all that analysis is fine, but it applies to the character trait of lolicon and should probably go on the analysis page for the article.

I am working under the view that it is a trope, and tropes should be written to apply easily to the content they cover. Thus lolicon is a trope about pedophile for laughs, so to speak, while the fetish is related but belongs on an analysis page while the girl in question would be a loli.

DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#94: Aug 31st 2011 at 6:27:01 PM

I've got a question: do we make tropes of 'what is being played'? Or do we make a trope of 'what it is and how it's played'? ^Copy-pasted!

edited 31st Aug '11 7:08:58 PM by DisasterGrind

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#95: Aug 31st 2011 at 9:13:31 PM

A trope page should be what the trope is, and what that means, when it shows up, that's different from People Sit On Chairs. How it's played is optional, but usually included, because it usually has to do with what it means.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:14:46 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#96: Sep 5th 2011 at 2:31:33 PM

Bump. What do we want to do with this? I don't think it should simply be left completely alone.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#97: Sep 5th 2011 at 6:05:29 PM

Well right now the page is more about the concept when I think we've agreed it should be about a character-type.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
ggfd Since: Dec, 1969
#98: Sep 5th 2011 at 9:10:02 PM

Sorry, I've been busy with work and family. I suggest:

Lolita Complex (covering what it is, why it is, and how its viewed in its native country) Lolicon (for the girl character) And possibly Loli, if there's enough to support a separate page.

"Lolita Complex" would be the best name for a description of itself, since it is a country specific phenomenon. "Lolicon" and "Loli" probably have better alternatives, but tropers can get pretty enthusiastic about names and I don't want to end up in a tarpit just yet.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#99: Sep 5th 2011 at 9:29:34 PM

That seems like a good way to do it. I also suggest a serious page based on pedophiles not played for laughs like this one is. It could and probably should be left locked.

20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#100: Sep 5th 2011 at 10:21:52 PM

[up][up]Except "lolicon" generally refers to either the character attracted to younger girls or the stuff he gets his rocks off on(pretty sure this is a Japan vs western world thing); "loli(ta)" is the girl. Definitely need a separate Evil Pedophile trope, though - probably should launch that first.

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan

SingleProposition: Lolicon
13th Sep '11 7:30:13 PM

Crown Description:

This crowner is to determine whether the trope Lolicon should be an article regarding a particular character type. If it is not a character type, the current information on the page will be moved to a Useful Notes page about the lolicon industry.

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