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Needs a re-name: Yangire

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Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#126: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:39:41 PM

Stewie is messy his basic personality is portrayed so randomly... He never actually was "cute". And his "kill Lois" thing could be Familial love which would be a form of Yandere (stretching it a bit). He would be great for the broader Cute And Crazy trope.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:44:11 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#127: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:40:41 PM

"Over the show's many seasons he's evolved from being the drippy little kid who always gets duped, intimidated and trampled over by Eddy's scams, to the sneaky, somewhat Machiavellian little kid who is more than capable of running a scam of his own. That doesn't screams Ax Crazy to me as much as it does "Scheming Bastard"."

That entry's not exactly correct, seeing as how he stays sweet most of the time, but has a sadistic, savage side when he is crossed. For instance, when Eddy threw hotdogs at him until he snapped, and thrashed the Eds. Or when he was wedgied in public, causing him to enace major revenge.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#128: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:41:18 PM

[up][up][up][up]I agree. Saying "no misuse has been proven" is really rather misleading in light of that. We don't know whether that's actually misuse or not, but saying that the trope is working is a bit of a presumptuous claim at present.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:41:28 PM by nrjxll

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#129: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:46:10 PM

[up]I edited it to present the missing pro-rename argument and the main counterargument, since that only seemed fair.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
shark33 Since: Nov, 2010
#130: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:47:06 PM

"That entry's not exactly correct, seeing as how he stays sweet most of the time, but has a sadistic, savage side when he is crossed. For instance, when Eddy threw hotdogs at him until he snapped, and thrashed the Eds. Or when he was wedgied in public, causing him to enace major revenge."

That is Beware the Nice Ones then.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:47:34 PM by shark33

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#131: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:50:04 PM

Why should "rename" be removed from the crowner?

It's a Page action, which can have several options, not a single prop, and the whole thread was started with a proposal to rename.

DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#132: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:55:04 PM

[up] [up] No, it's not. He's got cute mannerisms, is cute, but hates being socially humiliated, and goes insane when that happens.

To quote the Yangire page: "On the outside, they seem cute and innocent, almost to a fault. And sometimes, they really are. On the inside, however, they're very different shades of violent, unstable and downright insane. Sometimes, they have to be provoked into this. Often, they don't; this is just the way they are..."

Emphasis on those last two sentences. Jimmy's proven to have at least two mental disorders, from his dependance on Sarah, to his Narcissistic nature and his craving for attention, featured mainly in the episode he and Eddy competed for attention via afflicting themselves with varying degrees of self-injury.

Let it be known that I felt very silly writing that.

edited 27th Aug '11 5:00:56 PM by DisasterGrind

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#133: Aug 27th 2011 at 4:55:12 PM

You know, we probably need an index/Supertrope for crazy people that has all of this stuff on it, and a short explanation on what each one is, so it's easier for people to see which a character falls under. I think your main problem is you aren't aware of all the possibilities

As it is a crazy character who appears at times crazy and at times not can be: Bitch in Sheep's Clothing, Beware the Nice Ones, StepfordSmiler, Yangire,Yandere, or KillerRabbit and probably more I can't think of off the top of my head.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#134: Aug 27th 2011 at 5:12:57 PM

[up] That sounds like a good idea.

"I think your main problem is you aren't aware of all the possibilities" That's untrue. I just don't think that it makes sense to split up a bunch of things simply because "The Japanese do it different!" Look at Gartuitous English/German. Prime example of what I'm talking about. And I think I've mentioned that many times.

edited 27th Aug '11 5:16:29 PM by DisasterGrind

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#135: Aug 27th 2011 at 5:35:49 PM

I don't know what you are talking about with gratuitous german/english, but I assume you mean that those things should be Gratuitious Foreign Language, (which I agree with you) which is not actually the same as this instance, though.

You see two things that are more or less the same, can still be two tropes, because they are evoke different things, due to intention or context. Take blond hair. We have Dumb Blond, Blond Guys Are Evil, Blondes Are Evil and Hair of Gold. But it's all the literal same thing. It's all blond hair.

Aside from the small, specific differences we are describing between Yangire, and the trope you are trying to turn it into, which should be something like Crazy All Along, or something, that's the difference here. There is a particular intention behind this trope. And before you say it, we can actually assume that to a certain extent in anime, because that's part of anime culture, whereas in western examples, we can't necessarily be sure if this was the intention of the creators.

edited 27th Aug '11 5:36:35 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#136: Aug 27th 2011 at 5:47:59 PM

(Goes off topic) [up][up]We do have a thread open for making a Surprisingly Good Foreign Language trope as a super trope to Surprisingly Good English go bump it and put in your two cents.(I would be fine with doing the same to gratuitous language tropes too) And this is not the place for that kind of tangent too it will only start flame wars.

edited 27th Aug '11 5:50:22 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#137: Aug 27th 2011 at 5:51:48 PM

"Aside from the small, specific differences we are describing between Yangire, and the trope you are trying to turn it into, which should be something like Crazy All Along"

You're misunderstanding; I don't want to change the trope. I believe that the trope is not inherently exclusive or in any way partial to Japanese media, and needs a rename to reflect that.

"There is a particular intention behind this trope. And before you say it, we can actually assume that to a certain extent in anime, because that's part of anime culture, whereas in western examples, we can't necessarily be sure if this was the intention of the creators. "

That's ridiculous. Read this over, please. I'm hoping you just made a mistake, or that I'm misreading. So you're saying that the Japanese are the only ones who can use this mechanic purposely? I'm beginning to get offended. :)

And what I mean with regards to Grauitous German/English is that almost the whole article is discussing what Gratuitous English/German means to the Japanese, when this phenomena is worldwide, and is in no way special to people of Japanese origin. For example, my relatives in China are known to share many comical stories about how this frequently occurs there; same thing with my relatives from Cuba. There's no denying that the Japanese-targeting nature of the article is unaccaptable as is.

I don't mean to come off as bitter, but to be frank with you, this obvious pandering to Japanophiles is somewhat annoying.

DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#138: Aug 27th 2011 at 5:52:59 PM

[up][up] Agreed. But I'm just trying to give examples as to what I'm trying to avoid here.

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#139: Aug 27th 2011 at 6:14:44 PM

What I described in my other post is the description of Yangire I am operating under. You are obviously operating under the current description of Yangire, which would be a supertrope, in my opinion.

Why the current definition is wrong could be for any number of reasons, such as the person who made it was just lax at writing description, didn't think it required much added description other than yandere minus Lover Interest to differentiate, didn't know enough about the character type, or at the time it hadn't been quite pinned down yet what the exact specifications were, so they erred on the side of being inclusive. Not to mention archetypes can themselves evolve and get Flanderized over time, which happens a lot in anime, because everyone carbon copies characters over and over and over until they are something else and something very specific. (we don't do this, because our culture is much more individualistic. basically int he West people would get criticized for this type of thing, they don't place that type of ownership on this stuff there).

By evoking, I mean they are intending to create something that would be specifically called a "yangire". And yes they actually do that, because this sort of thing is tied into marketing and such. Anime is a business, okay? It's practically scientific. And when these archetypes get popular enough to have terms and names, manga and anime jump on it quick.

Outside of anime in the west, they might try to evoke a certain feeling for this character (though I actually doubt it is the sort of fetishistic thing yangire does, the vast majority of the time), which is similar, but they wouldn't make it specifically so it can fall under the heading "yangire", because it doesn't exist in the west, and doesn't have such specific specifications anyway. That is the difference.

edited 27th Aug '11 6:15:14 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#140: Aug 27th 2011 at 6:15:56 PM

Sorry, but wouldn't splitting this page result in Yangire being Cute and Psycho, But in Japan? I thought The Same But More Specific wasn't enough to be separately tropable...

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#141: Aug 27th 2011 at 6:20:42 PM

Where are you getting that? No, that is not what it would end up as. That version of the trope is more common in Japan, but that doesn't mean its Japan-centric. It just means Japanese media has this somewhat odd appreciation for people who flip between two extremes (see: all the -dere tropes).

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
DisasterGrind Since: May, 2012
#142: Aug 27th 2011 at 6:27:09 PM

[up][up][up] Look, I think I've made my point clear enough already, so I'll just respond by saying that I respect you, and will not try to change your mind on something that you seem to believe; It's kind of pointless. Anyway, I think I'm going into lurk mode for a while seeing as how there's a hurricane coming up that I need to prepare for.

I'll be back later! ',:D

edited 27th Aug '11 6:30:59 PM by DisasterGrind

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#143: Aug 27th 2011 at 6:31:13 PM

It's not the same, I explained why it's not the same, you guys just keep insisting it is anyways, so I'm writing this based on the way you guys are talking about it. And actually we do have tropes that are The Samebut More Specific In Japan. Look in the TRS for Hikikomori, which decided Hikkikomori was a subtrope to some Shut In supertrope. Audience Reaction is tied up into why it's different in both of these.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#144: Aug 27th 2011 at 7:02:17 PM

[up]Except that Hikikomori is an entire Japanese cultural phenomenon, with articles written about it occurring in real life and so forth. I am still having trouble seeing anything about this trope that makes it unique to Japan, other then the fact that they apparently use a specific version of it much more often then anywhere else does.

As a lumper, I'm biased against the split to begin with, but I'll concede that there may indeed be a supertrope and a subtrope here. However, while that subtrope may be popular among the Japanese, I don't see why it has to be exclusive to Japan, the way something like Hikikomori would be.

edited 27th Aug '11 7:02:32 PM by nrjxll

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#145: Aug 27th 2011 at 7:09:16 PM

[up] No one is saying EXCLUSIVE... Majority usage yes.

For a western example sometimes Harley Quinn is portrayed as Yangire she is cute maybe kinda normal assistant and yada then the psychosis comes out (and it's still cute although that is sometimes YMMV its objective enough on if its intended.) and she goes back and forth. (Her actual thing with the joker is Yandere though.)

edited 27th Aug '11 7:56:57 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#146: Aug 27th 2011 at 7:54:05 PM

My understanding from the crowner is that the proposed solution is to split the name Yangire from the current description.

The current description will become a supertrope of Cute But Crazy girls. Cute nice girl is discovered to have a crazy side.

Yangire will become a character that is Cute But Crazy and switches back and forth. IE It's not character development, it's just a part of their character that exists.

Whether the main name of this subtrope will remain Yangire or if it will be in English with Yangire as a redirect will be decided after the current crowner is over.

Falco Since: Mar, 2011
#147: Aug 27th 2011 at 8:07:45 PM

Tropes Are Flexible. Keep it as one, and re-name to a better understood name, keep Yangire as a re-direct.

"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.
Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#148: Aug 28th 2011 at 2:52:34 AM

It's not the same, I explained why it's not the same, you guys just keep insisting it is anyways, so I'm writing this based on the way you guys are talking about it.

That's because, so far, what you've explained boils down to "The same phenomenon as everywhere else in the world, but in Japan." The counter-example you cite is a uniquely Japanese phenomenon and thus should be given its proper name (which just so happens to be in the Japanese language.

Otherwise, its akin to saying that Omake isn't the same as Bonus Material, because Omake is Japanese. Might as well argue that we need to split Lagniappe from Bonus Material, since Lagniappe is French. The same principle applies here.

Besides, the term "Yangire" is yet another "created by the Anime community" term, like Nakama, which does not mean the same thing outside of anime culture.

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
◥▶◀◤
#149: Aug 28th 2011 at 3:10:28 AM

[up]Omake should be split off as well. Omakes are small often humorous usually non-canon manga or anime bits, bonus material can be anything from commentary to concept art.

edited 28th Aug '11 3:12:18 AM by Vyctorian

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SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#150: Aug 28th 2011 at 3:12:19 AM

[up]

What, why? That makes no sense.

Edit: And after your explanation...no. Omake can be basically anything as well.

For the record, Yangire did, as far as I can tell, originate in Japan, so it does have a better pedigree as a pre-existing term than Nakama.

Anyway, I honestly don't think that its necessary to split Yangire, and I have no issues with renaming it.

edited 28th Aug '11 3:12:56 AM by SakurazakiSetsuna

PageAction: Yangire2
27th Aug '11 4:01:56 PM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

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