I think the problem is our new policy that we're not allowed to put review-like commentary on the Fanfic Recs pages any more, so all of those short little reviews are being ported off into all these one-sentence separate reviews to be linked to from the Fanfic Recs pages, which is why there's this sudden flood of poorly-constructed reviews.
edited 25th Aug '11 9:15:11 AM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)essentially yes. I've asked, and asked, and asked for permission to be allowed to just nuke them in conversion from the comments to the reviews and been told no or "we're thinking about it", and believe me there are even shorter ones than that that I am ignoring (or folding into the synopsis). Sadly the only way to get the fanfic pages converted as things currently stands is to do this. The only thing I can suggest is someone other than me asking for permission to nuke them, because I can guarantee anything I ask will be refused out of hand, point-blank.
Well, considering I don't think they should be nuked at all, because they're useful information for anyone determining whether the person's recommendation is a good one or not... I'm afraid I can't help you. Personally I don't see what the big deal is and why we couldn't just have left well enough alone.
edited 25th Aug '11 2:36:11 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
there is nothing to stop the OP's adding a more substantive review themselves. If they don't care to do so that says just as much, if not more, about the story than a one or two sentence long "It's cool. I can really picture X-Character and Y-Character together like that" comment. Most of them are just people writing "cool story" because they think they have to put some words in a comment. "Comments" was an optional field to start with, not a required one. It should be the synopsis that sells the rec anyway.
We couldn't leave it as it was because the comments were turning into discussion threads in many cases and certain tropers were using them to "anti-recommend" and generally bitch and whine about other people recommending fics they, personally, didn't like. At least the reviews shifts that rubbish off the main page and removes the temptation.
And just as a personal rant, if people would use the format posted on the bloody Fan Fic Recommendations index page we'd have less of them. Half the pages I've converted in the last week have been created since the format was shifted to the top of the main page.
edited 25th Aug '11 2:47:44 PM by CrypticMirror
Simply summarizing the events of the story is different from saying the reason why it's good is because it provides a good example of one dynamic or another.
Like, I have a story I recommended where the summary would be "character X gets kidnapped by bad guy y and has experiments performed on her", but the reason why it's recommended is because "it does a good job of providing a possible explanation for seemingly questionably and OOC character trait y in the canon". Someone who might not otherwise be interested by the summary might be interested by my reason why the fic is IMHO good, or vice versa. Or turned off by one but not the other, as the case may be.
And considering how many recommended fics I've come across that actually turned out be terrible, I welcome all the forewarning info I can get.
edited 25th Aug '11 3:05:36 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)We probably could have just removed the comment system from the recommendation index, instead of disallowing the OP to offer why they think the thing is good. If you want to make your own review of the fanfic so much, make a proper (proper; we should nuke any poorly-done, rant-only pages) trope page for it, then you can add reviews there. Or, you know, go to FF.Net and, you know, add a review there, like you're supposed to do...
Disclaimer: I've never used this system, I'm only going off what I read in this thread, so if I just completely failed somewhere in some obvious way here, that's why...
edited 25th Aug '11 3:13:30 PM by USAF713
I am now known as Flyboy.![]()
The ironic thing is, that's more or less what most of the "reviews" on the fanfic recs pages for the works I follow consist of. It sounds like you're actually OK with reviews as a result, so long as they're in the summary instead of the comments, which seems like a silly distinction to make.
And I've come across plenty of fics on said rec pages that had OOC characterizations, crack pairings, plots that make no sense with canon even as AUs, etc. A lot of people have really bad ideas on what makes for a "good" fic. (Or maybe it's just that the people in the fandoms I follow have no sense of quality, which is entirely possible.)
And, I think it's kind of silly to have to write up a whole formal review just because I want to recommend a fic and want to provide useful information about it, let alone a whole work page.
edited 25th Aug '11 3:33:18 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)![]()
I agree 100% wholeheartedly. These days most of our recs go to fanfic sites like FF.net, adultff.net, AO 3, livejournal, etc, and they all have a review function. Go read the reviews there if you want to know more. The review thing was more of an issue before geocities went tits up and people still had their own sites/pages where the "review this fic" button just gave you an email address for the author and you had to rely on them posting your review (which many never did, and even the ones that did only used the best ones). Maybe, if you were lucky, they had a guestbook they didn't purge regularly.
Sigh....I miss that old internet, you had fics that tried not to be gen or carbon copies of the broadcast/printed version. The fans set out to explore the characters by dropping them in different settings, or twisting some characters to get a look at the others. Too many fics these days are written by people pretending to be writing for the show/comic/book itself and too many fans want to cater to that delusion. The current version of the web in general really sucks.
Jeysie what you are seeing is different tastes, not bad writing. I wrote this up before I saw your reply and what you say are poorly written fics are the ones I think sparkle. What I think are, bland, cardboard cut-out fics which I would pass over, are the ones you love. It's important not to confuse "not to my taste" with "bad fic", and that is why the preamble on the recs page warns you that you need to pay attention to the name on the rec so you can gauge if the reccer(s) has the same taste as you.
And FWIW I'd love to see much better written synopsis on nearly all our recs. Trouble was, and thanks to the deities we've got rid of the worst of them, people didn't stick to saying why someone should read a fic. No they'd then put in screeds about why people should not read others. The original idea was you signed your name, and if you had something substantive to add about why it was a good rec you could add it. If you didn't like it, you just didn't add your name to it and that was that (as I say the names on the recs line are the real guide), but certain tropers couldn't live with people saying something that wasn't to their personal tastes was worth reading and that resulted in thread modes, edit wars, and general bitchiness.
edited 25th Aug '11 3:42:09 PM by CrypticMirror
Nononono, not for the original recommendation, I mean if people want to contest that recommendation. In hindsight, I would prefer if they just take it to the site proper with its own review section, and we just have the OP, his/her recommendation, and then if you think that's good enough, go read it, or better yet, read more reviews there...
I am now known as Flyboy.
yeah, but there was too much "contesting" that was really just someone saying a rec that wasn't to their personal taste was therefore objectively and definitively wrong. And worse refusing to accept that others disagreed (still is if you ask me, but at least it is in the reviews and you don't have to read it on the main page, we had a case crop up in Ask The Tropers recently where some review writers got into a stramash because someone wrote a review and then wouldn't accept others had a different viewpoint and only they could be right and the reviews page became a thread with them keeping on saying "no your wrong").
edited 25th Aug '11 3:53:37 PM by CrypticMirror
...I don't see how this could be any simpler. Unless I'm missing something?
Person makes a fanfic rec. They add the synopsis and a little blurb, plus a link. That should be the end of it. If someone wants to contest this and say "this fanfic is trash," they can do it on FF.Net, or make a proper page for the work and add a review. I don't see why it would have been any different...
I am now known as Flyboy.![]()
![]()
![]()
What? Um, no. I don't like bland, cardboard cut-out fics at all. But what I do like is stuff that doesn't flat-out contradict established characterization and established details of the setting, as that's a matter of good writing, not a matter of taste. I can tell the difference between my personal tastes and quality of writing just fine. In fact, I get annoyed at people who can't and claim it's all subjective.
And yet I see lots of fics recommended as "good" with pairings between people who are, say, quite clearly established to literally non-UST hate each other, or doing stuff they quite clearly would not do in canon, etc. I guess you could call it a matter of "taste" that some people like the characters acting in OOC ways, but I don't, so the mere fact that a fic has been recommended as supposedly "good" still says nothing on its own.
And, the name on the rec tells me nothing, at least the first time I read a fic recommended by a certain person. There's hundreds of tropers on this site, so seeing a given name tells me nothing unless I already know the troper in question.
Basically, to me, saying why someone thinks I would want to read a fic is useful info, as the summary alone isn't always helpful. Just saying "Here's a link to a fic I like, go read it" is incredibly useless. Even if a friend did that, I'd ask "OK, why do you think I should go read this?"
edited 25th Aug '11 4:16:43 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Yeah, you see here the thing is your definition of bland and cut-out varies from mine. I prefer a fic that plays with setting, characterisation, and so forth (to me seeing characters do things they wouldn't do in canon is exactly why I read fanfic). You prefer stuff that stays within that. These are personal tastes and does not a bad fic make. That you won't accept that, and I can't accept your definition of bad, is exactly what led to the comments turning into thread modes. When it comes to appreciation of fiction, it is all subjective.
edited 25th Aug '11 4:24:53 PM by CrypticMirror
But this is kind of missing the point. Or rather, it proves the point I'm trying to make. Namely, that if people want to like and recommend fics with stuff that flatly contradicts canon, their choice. The problem is, as a result, I can't assume that I'll think a fic is good merely because someone recommended it. So I need information that lets me judge whether a fic will suit my standards or not... and you want to remove some of that information.
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)Can't speak for him (her?), but personally, I don't want to remove it, I want to keep it off this site, because it attracts natter like honey attracts giant killer wasps. Nobody said you couldn't read the reviews on FF.Net. Is it really that hard? They're right there, when you open the link...
I am now known as Flyboy.
...um. Have you read the reviews section of FF.net? It's pretty much useless.
And not all fanfics are on FF.net; some are on DA, Livejournal, fandom-specific sites, personal websites, etc., not all of which will have reviews available.
Plus, no offense, but I'm not sure why it's such a big deal to keep the info here all in one spot. We could just make a blanket rule that you're not allowed to comment on people's recs, if natter is an issue.
edited 25th Aug '11 4:55:03 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)Bleh... you're mostly right. When I wrote fanfiction, most of my reviews were largely useless, from a constructive criticism point of view.
That's what I'm arguing for, though...
What did you think I was arguing for...?
I am now known as Flyboy.
...oh. Oops. See, I thought when you said "removed the comment system" from the Recs index, I thought you meant remove the comments section of each Rec "block". Since that's what Cryptic wants to do.
Now that I know what you really mean, I'll just say, last I knew the Recs index isn't in the TT/Discussion-page style "comment format" anyway. It's just regular wiki pages.
edited 25th Aug '11 5:08:02 PM by Jeysie
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)If the comment field was just used by the original recommender I would have had no problem with it being there either. However, we did have a rule about it not being used for natter, or anti-recommendations, and it was ignored. Repeatedly.
As it stands I think the current version with the comments removed, and a review link applied, to be the best compromise between intent and reality. However, what I object to is the process of shifting to that format made a hundred times harder by having to transfer all those one and two line "cool story bro" comments to reviews. It would be much simpler to nuke them, and then start fresh with reviewers adding their own review if they cared to do so.
edited 25th Aug '11 5:16:25 PM by CrypticMirror
I guess the thing is, every single work I follow that has a Fanfic Recs page, the comments section is only used by the OP, and there's no natter at all. So the news that there was a problem was, well, news to me.
Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)I don't use the Rec system, so I have no clue what this is.
My understanding is: someone posts a rec, and it's a magnet for natter. So, nobody but the OP can comment on the rec, if at all. You want to dispute the rec, do it at FF.Net.
edited 25th Aug '11 5:28:41 PM by USAF713
I am now known as Flyboy.![]()
It goes in cycles. For some fandoms, they can lie quiet and agreeable for ages before a couple of rageholes turn up to impose their one true view and editwar anyone who disagrees to death. And some fandoms have very active communities all the time. You can't really have one rule for one fandom and one rule for another though, so this is the solution that was developed. If we can ever get the damned thing fully implemented.
Although I will admit what with the white-hot heat of site creation having died down, I have seen a lot less of the nattery bitching. It's passed over, just in a quiescent stage, or the ones most responsible are finally finding their edit bans sticking. I'm betting it is just the middle one though, so I'd like to find a way to get it all converted before it all flares up again. An ounce of prevention and all that.
edited 25th Aug '11 5:42:32 PM by CrypticMirror

At present, about 50-75% of the first page of reviews is nothing but one or two sentence fan-fic reviews, all labelled "OP's Review" that don't really get into much about the work or why the reviewer likes or dislikes the things they brought up. Would it be possible to get a button to hide reviews that were less than, say, one or two hundred words?
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?