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Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
Aug 23rd 2011 at 5:56:26 PM

Inspired by feo in another thread.

Are Pick-Up Artists right or wrong? I don't mean morally, since that would lead into endless talking past each other with incommensurate ethics. I mean does it work or is it a scam?

I'll start with a negative point. Neuro-linguistic programming seems to be bunk.

Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled. — St. Bernard
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto
Proud Canadian
Aug 23rd 2011 at 5:58:49 PM

It seems every other thread is a spin off of another these days. What are we, cmic book writers?

I think it's a grey zone. It depends on the object. Rape or spreading ST Is = no.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
LoniJay from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:01:09 PM

Well, I am certain it wouldn't work on me. But then again I'm sure absolutely everyone says that about emotionally manipulative things.

Be not afraid...
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:06:47 PM

I don't see anything wrong with it, I just don't bother operating in that way. Pu As generally get what they "want"; a shallow, sex-oriented relationship based on bullshit that ends quickly.

I also don't feel much pity for them when it happens.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:07:42 PM

I think I know what we're talking about, but anyone care to explain exactly, so we're clear?

I am now known as Flyboy.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:16:40 PM

... And USAF with the intelligent move!

Yeah, someone want to provide a link/explanation?

edited 23rd Aug '11 6:16:57 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
MasterInferno It's Like Arguing on the Internet from Tomb of Malevolence Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
It's Like Arguing on the Internet
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:17:24 PM

This.

Somehow you know that the time is right.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:23:09 PM

So... it's a group of men who honestly think that conventional relationships are bad, and that it should just be "woman, you sit and we fuck; none of this other nonsense about commitment or anything!"

Nothing new, really. It's just a Weird Trade Union, I suppose. Drunk is right though, they're looking for fast sex, and that's all they'll get, if that...

I am now known as Flyboy.
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:28:06 PM

[up] What's wrong with fast, semi-random sex? It's exctiting, satisfying, and practical: It allows you to resume your existence afterwards with minimal inconvenience and hassle.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 6:30:42 PM

Nothing, Savage. I get the feeling, however, that some of these guys actually are looking for long-term, "proper" relationships, but expect to conduct it in this manner.

Yeah... that's not going to work out...

I am now known as Flyboy.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:10:35 PM

After doing a bit of research, I'm not finding much to fault about pick up artistry; they're basically saying "humans have a mating dance, here's how to learn the steps". They might occasionally be mistaken as to the details, but the basic concept is sound.

I think the problem is not the message but what some of the less moral practitioners and nearly all the detractors make of it. There's nothing wrong with cruising for sex if you are being honest about it, but sadly most aren't. *

I'd venture to say two things; that the men who don't like pickup artistry are upset because jealousy, and the feminist community is upset because of the underlying message that people are basically shallow (true) and women aren't exempt (ditto). The men who misuse what they're taught can't help the situation, but there are plenty of creepers who misuse emotional guilt and play on women's urge to aid, protect, nurture and above all conform. *

There are two tenets of Pu A that I actually respect;

  • Their disparagement of practicing what they call "Supplication" (e.g. thinking women will like you if you spend time and money on them). The reason? I like the idea of someone telling men "Hey, buying all her drinks does not mean she's obligated to fuck you, give her a better reason than that". Ladies, which is better; the guy who buys you one drink, talks a while, realizes you aren't interested and walks away, or the guy who buys you a drink and follows you around all night hoping (or worse, assuming) that you'll go home with him?
  • Their concept of "outer game"; that better hygiene, conversation skills, fashion sense and knowledge of the fair sex will increase your odds. Well, duh; I've yet to meet a girl who prefers a guy who doesn't shower.

A good deal of what they preach is simple common sense and realism, and no one likes a realist. I don't know if I buy their evo-psych line, but whatever.

What I don't buy, however, is the argument that they are somehow misogynistic. Certainly there are individuals within the scene who misuse what they've been taught and use it as a shield to mask their own immorality and insecurity, but I fail to see the female-hating in the message itself. If anything, Pu As might be more empowering to women than the legion of Nice Guys who want to put them on a pedestal and worship them forever...so long as they conform to whatever fantasy put them there in the first place.

As Gloria Steinem once said, "A pedestal is as much a prison as any other small space".

As long as the Pu A methods are practiced with a certain basic degree of integrity and common decency (which I feel is a prerequisite to any dating style), I for one see nothing wrong with it.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:17:54 PM

Well, there's nothing wrong with wanting to equalize the dating scene (since, on average, women generally have more ability to get a date than guys, it seems), but like you said, the ideal is only good if they practice what they preach.

Hell, I don't care if they want to go barhopping for string-less sex. They probably won't be able to find or maintain a long-term relationship that way, though...

edited 23rd Aug '11 7:18:33 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:23:21 PM

@USAF: Oh, almost certainly. But the kind of women that this schtick works on aren't the sort you'd probably want for a long term thing anyway.

I'd also like to add "Know when to fold up your game and go home" as something I like about these guys. Again, ladies, which is better; the guy who recognizes when you aren't interested or the guy who just won't get a clue?

Judging from what my female friends say, the root-and-branch problem women have with the so-called "Nice Guys" is their clinginess and unwillingness to take even the broadest of hints. I believe xkcd did a strip about this very thing.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:27:34 PM

Bleh... I'm going to revel in my loser datelessness after college. Luckily, I'll hopefully have an excuse, being in the military, but I really suck at the whole "asking the girl out" bit. I'm too awkwardly misanthropic for this kind of thing.

I guess... more power to them? They aren't "wasting money" on it, I suppose. Yay?

I am now known as Flyboy.
LoniJay from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:28:56 PM

I suppose one thing I dislike about 'pick up artists' is the sentiment I've seen some of them express, something about 'all rejection is transient'. Something like, every girl will sleep with you if only you know the right emotional buttons to press.

Something about treating women like sex AT Ms just bugs me. Tap in the right code, hey presto commodity! It's just a matter of figuring out the PIN.

edited 23rd Aug '11 7:29:24 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:32:48 PM

@Loni: I think they misunderstand the meaning of "all rejection is transient". What its supposed to mean is "sooner or later you'll find someone for whom your game is appealing", not "every woman is a machine to be manipulated". Sure, they might not know your pin number, but whatever...there's probably another woman that they can figure out.

This, I think, separates the proper practitioners from the wannabes; the ability to simply walk away (e.g. take rejection and move on) when things aren't panning out.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
MostlyBenign Why so serious?
Why so serious?
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:48:21 PM

There is no reason to assume that PU As would only be interested in no-strings-attached sex, or that "meaningful relationships" can't grow out of something that begins as casual sex (if anything, it seems that this is how most relationships start these days; I don't know anyone who has actually "dated" in the traditional way).

Generally, it seems to me that PUA is mostly just about teaching lonely men the skills they need to find sex and - while it often goes unmentioned - love. It does attract misogynists, of course, but for the most part, the opposition towards it seems to stem from the basic human desire to see love as something magical and inexplicable, combined with some good, old-fashioned demonizing of male sexuality.

Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:54:35 PM

The secret line to pick up any woman

edited 23rd Aug '11 7:55:52 PM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:59:04 PM

Baff... that's so wrong... and yet so funny... [lol]

I am now known as Flyboy.
LoniJay from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Aug 23rd 2011 at 7:59:36 PM

@Drunk But don't you think that on some level it is dishonest? I mean, if what the women want to hear is what you're like anyway, then well and good; but what if you honestly aren't the things a particular woman likes?

Is it right to outright lie to women to get what you want? Maybe it might be if she's fully aware that you're just playing a game, but what if she thinks you're being sincere?

Be not afraid...
drunkscriblerian Street Writing Man from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Aug 23rd 2011 at 8:09:56 PM

@Loni: As I recently told someone else via PM, this school of thought seems to be designed to work not as a relationship getter but how to survive in the cruel reality of the "singles scene" (Bars, clubs, house parties, etc.) where people meet and pair off. In such places the bullshit runs rampant and knows no gender; I know, I used to work in/frequent them.

Again, people are basically shallow and selfish when their baser instincts are involved. Pu A seems to be how to use that to your advantage.

And, if a girl wants a meaningful relationship, she isn't likely to find it at the neighborhood tavern. Just sayin'. smile

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
LoniJay from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Aug 23rd 2011 at 8:12:37 PM

So, because everybody is dishonest on the dating scene anyway, we should encourage dishonesty and teach people how to lie better?

That doesn't sound like a very convincing argument for the morality of something, "everybody's doing it anyway".

Be not afraid...
MostlyBenign Why so serious?
Why so serious?
Aug 23rd 2011 at 8:12:43 PM

PUA isn't about "lying to women", it's about learning to present yourself in a light that facilitates forming an emotional connection or creating a sexual spark.

In other words, it's a social skill.

EDIT: Also, why is it supposedly impossible to find a relationship in the neighbourhood tavern? In my experience, that patronage of neighbourhood taverns tends to be... the ordinary people in the neighbourhood.

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:14:17 PM by MostlyBenign

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest
Aug 23rd 2011 at 8:15:15 PM

Question: Is this an accurate representation of PUA skills? Because, honestly, I can't imagine this working on anyone.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States
I changed accounts.
Aug 23rd 2011 at 8:16:08 PM

So, what, this is supposed to be a skill for how hopeless people like me can present ourselves in a way that isn't totally fail? It seems rather... self-centered. I mean, like noted, I guess everyone is already doing it, but also as Loni said, that doesn't mean it's a good thing...

edited 23rd Aug '11 8:17:11 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

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