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Deadlock Clock: Feb 3rd 2014 at 11:59:00 PM
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#101: Dec 19th 2012 at 10:36:05 AM

The only other thing I can think of that involves "type" changes is Chrono Cross, which has spells that allow you to change a character's elemental affinity (thus changing the Elemental Rock–Paper–Scissors). I'm not sure it's common enough to warrant its own specific description, which is why I lumped it under "misc/other" a few posts ago.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#102: Dec 19th 2012 at 11:34:50 AM

A miscellaneous category makes more sense, but the current sandbox has it written as 'your character type changes to undead, so healing hurts you and whatnot' rather than that.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#103: Dec 19th 2012 at 1:02:58 PM

Note that "Miscellaneous" and "commonly used" are a contradiction in terms. This was never intended to be a "complete" list of status effects by any means; that's what crosswicking is for.

Perhaps you should switch zombie to a more general 'creature type change.'
How about "Negatively affects other fixed traits of a character (element, class, species)" ?

I think when you start getting into that much detail, the page really wants to be an index.
Supertrope+index. Specific ailments are subtropes (individual YKTTW's pending), but Status ailments in general are a trope too.

Overall, I think the effects are used more than their names, though.
It goes both ways. E.g. Damage Over Time can go by many names, but the same ailment label can have different effects between games (best example: Confusion vs. Charm).

edited 19th Dec '12 1:11:34 PM by Stratadrake

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#104: Dec 19th 2012 at 5:16:02 PM

And with game mechanics, I think the actual mechanics are more important than what you call them. A rose by any other name and all that.

And a minor note, zombie is like berserk in that it's not strictly negative, but often perceived as much. At the same time, when they are considered negative there are often at least a couple situations where they can be Game Breakers.

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#105: Dec 19th 2012 at 6:54:32 PM

Note that "Miscellaneous" and "commonly used" are a contradiction in terms. This was never intended to be a "complete" list of status effects by any means; that's what crosswicking is for.
I thought part of what we were doing was retooling it into a general "debuff" page, as a sister trope to Status Buff? In which case, "miscellaneous" would certainly be something we'd want to cover, precisely because the list isn't complete, it just hits the highlights.

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#106: Dec 19th 2012 at 7:44:31 PM

Well, the trope is standard status effects, not status effects. It's about the pattern of using a few specific effects in games, rather than using them at all.

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#107: Dec 19th 2012 at 9:47:55 PM

With the current name (and its associated redirects), yes. But if we're also renaming it to simply Status Ailment then that is no longer an issue (though IMHO a list of "standard" ailment names is still good to have somewhere).

Another possible idea: One page for Status Ailments in general and another for the stock ailment labels that typically show up in RPG's. Or is that overkill?

edited 19th Dec '12 9:49:43 PM by Stratadrake

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WaxingName from Everywhere Since: Oct, 2010
#108: Dec 20th 2012 at 2:44:15 AM

[up]One page for ailments is good enough.

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#109: Dec 20th 2012 at 10:03:25 AM

I think that Status Ailments is tropeworthy in and of itself. It's something that you can recognize even if the effect itself doesn't fit any of the standard list. If we're not retooling Standard Status Effects into a generic Status Ailment trope, then we should certainly create one.

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WaxingName from Everywhere Since: Oct, 2010
#110: Dec 20th 2012 at 4:58:15 PM

[up]Thing is, Status Effects can be interpreted as referring to both positive and negative status effects, (see: Stock RPG Spells). Some games classify Status Buffs and Ailments as being in the big category of status ailments.

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#111: Dec 20th 2012 at 6:42:13 PM

Well, Status Effects (both positive and negative) is certainly a trope. Whether we want to go like this

or organize it some other way, Status Effect is definitely the ultimate Missing Supertrope to this whole trope family.

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#112: Dec 20th 2012 at 8:07:22 PM

I kinda think that would be too many pages with too small steps, though I'm not sure what the optimal solution would be.

Sometimes I think it should maybe just be one page about status effects in general, soft split between buffs, ailments, and combined, which then links to the individual effects that are their own tropes.

Essentially, merge all pages into one, then split the individual buffs and ailments to their own pages, with the main page only for examples that don't fit a subtrope.

edited 20th Dec '12 8:09:44 PM by AnotherDuck

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WaxingName from Everywhere Since: Oct, 2010
#113: Feb 6th 2013 at 10:43:54 AM

*bump* How's everything going here?

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#114: Feb 7th 2013 at 9:57:54 AM

I don't think individual status ailments are necessarily worth individual pages. The thing about status ailments is that you can never really have just one ... I'm leaning towards one page for the ailments as a gameplay mechanic and then one for the common labels assigned to them.

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#115: Apr 23rd 2013 at 11:25:23 AM

I think our crowner broke. Where was the discussion going again?

At any rate, my IMHO current proposal is to launch a page called simply Status Ailment (or Status Ailments, plural, since they're typically part of a system). And there's the writeup at Sandbox.Standard Status Effects for comparison (or should I YKTTW that?) .

edited 23rd Apr '13 11:25:56 AM by Stratadrake

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StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#116: Apr 23rd 2013 at 7:46:02 PM

The sandbox page looks more like an Analysis writeup in its current form.

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#117: Apr 25th 2013 at 9:04:39 AM

Well, what do you think it should look like?

There's been a ton of discussion about what the problem is and how to fix it. We seem to have lost the crowner, but IMO the problem with the page as stands is:

  1. Not having a page for Status Ailments (one of the pre-established terms) in general, while
  2. Trying to claim that they are "standardized" when the descriptions (and even labels) attest that many of them are not, and
  3. Splitting/sorting in-page examples by individual ailment.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#118: Apr 30th 2013 at 9:31:04 AM

I think we need at least two separate pages: one for "Status Effect" as a concept, and one for examples of common types (eg, poison, paralysis, etc). That way it can be used for things like "Earth Bound has an odd Status Effect called mushroomized" on the one hand and "Final Fantasy includes almost all of the Common Status Effects" on the other.

The question is whether we should split things in terms of buffs and debuffs, and whether we should list things by name (eg, poison) or by mechanical effect (eg, damage over time). I personally vote for "lump" and "mechanical effect", respectively, but that's just me.

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#119: May 1st 2013 at 6:27:03 AM

The two pages we have already effectively split between positive and negative effects.

And note the practical differences, too — namely, that the negative effects:

  • Are far more prevalent than positive ones (inflicted more often, last longer)
  • Have dedicated cures easily available

edited 1st May '13 6:27:37 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#120: May 1st 2013 at 7:49:04 AM

Which two pages do you mean? Standard Status Effects and Status Buff? I think that generic "Status Effect" is a missing supertrope to both of those — and would be useful for categorizing things that have both positive and negative aspects (eg, Final Fantasy's "berserk" status, which forces a character to do nothing but physical attacks, but boosts their physical attack power at the same time). If we want to have separate pages for "Status Buff" and "Status Ailment", then I don't see a problem with that, but having one page that's "a trope about buffs" and another that's "a list of negative status effects" bothers me. I don't see why the two shouldn't be mirrors of each other.

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#121: Jun 12th 2013 at 12:14:23 AM

OK, this has been around since 2011. Is it accurate to say that the crowner decided on a split but not on a way to split it?

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#122: Jun 12th 2013 at 1:48:15 AM

Yes, and that's pretty much why it stalled, I believe.

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Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
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#123: Jun 12th 2013 at 5:47:49 AM

Would it be worth splitting the current list of effects into sub-categories of action/effect on the character, YKTTW'ing pages that cover those categories, and then moving the appropriate folders to those pages once they're launched? That way, we could cut down on the number of pages.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#124: Jun 12th 2013 at 6:06:54 AM

I think so.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#125: Jun 12th 2013 at 6:35:34 AM

I think that's generally the best way to handle category splits. Start with a single trope page. Then when it gets enough examples that sorting by type makes it clearer you can do that on the page. If any singular category is large enough, it can be moved to its own page.

Anyway, I don't have time to check now, but I think one of the issues were whether to split them by name or by gameplay effect. I prefer the latter, as a name by itself doesn't necessarily serve a narrative purpose, while a gameplay mechanics always serve balance purposes.

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PageAction: StandardStatusEffects
2nd Sep '11 1:18:23 PM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

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