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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#176: Sep 29th 2011 at 4:21:58 PM

[up] Depends on the spell. Mages (and later thieves) can cast spells from scrolls directly. (with certain restrictions) it's fairly useful to have eg. Stone to Flesh scrolls around to cure that particular status effect without having to waste a spell slot.

Level-dependant spells are less useful, since they're cast at minimum caster level.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#177: Sep 29th 2011 at 4:44:05 PM

In the second game, you get experience from learning spells, and can forget them to make room. You get the experience again for re-learning it, and on the easiest difficulty you never fail to learn a spell.

This means that you can temporarily lower the difficulty, unlearn all your spells and relearn them from all the spell shops in Athkatla, and pick up a boatload of experience. Ethically dubious, but a nice way to essentially buy experience if you really want it.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
metaphysician Since: Oct, 2010
#178: Sep 29th 2011 at 4:59:35 PM

[up] I can't remember, but is the amount of experience really worth the hassle?

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com
Blissey1 insert title here from a random Pokècenter Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
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#179: Sep 29th 2011 at 6:45:00 PM

it's 1k xp per level of spell, ie 9th level spell gives you 9k xp.

It's only really useful if you dual class your main character to a mage, then go on a spell learning spree and instantly get yourself like 8 levels.

XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#180: Sep 30th 2011 at 4:13:29 PM

[up] Doesn't have to be the main character, and you don't need to Dual Class to make it worthwhile.

If you're prepared to buy every scroll you can get your hands on, and re-memorise them repeatedly, you can get several hundred thousand experience pretty easily.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
LOEADITOOx .... from -???- Since: Feb, 2011
....
#181: Sep 30th 2011 at 4:25:14 PM

What is your opinion of a Dual Thief-Necromancer class

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Xan-Xan/
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#182: Sep 30th 2011 at 4:45:37 PM

I don't think any mage-sub class is worth it - losing any field of magic gives you nowhere near enough benefits. Go for Thief-mage

My personal preference is for multi-class against Dual, but either would work. If you start as a thief and dual into mage, make sure you've got enough points to keep you going later on. If the other way around, you need a backup mage.

edited 30th Sep '11 4:45:56 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Blissey1 insert title here from a random Pokècenter Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
insert title here
#183: Sep 30th 2011 at 5:25:51 PM

well the idea with the main character is you kick out all the other party members while learning the spells so you get all the xp, as opposed to it being split amongst the group.

XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!
Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#184: Sep 30th 2011 at 5:27:50 PM

[up][up] Some are. Conjurers only lose divination. Your cleric can easily get True Sight anyways, and identifying items can be done by Lore or with items (or if you have a bard)

And you get 1 extra spell/level and your specialist school spells are harder to save against. not peanuts.

Edwin of course, being a Red Wizard, gets two extra spells/level. Git. (although mechanically that's from his amulet)

I'd say the least useful schools are probably divination, necromancy and enchantment. Never under any circumstances lose Conjuration, Alteration or Conjuration.

edited 30th Sep '11 5:28:18 PM by Arilou

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#185: Sep 30th 2011 at 6:16:02 PM

[up][up] Yes, but that experience i s still beneficial to the party, even if split, especially if you do it on a large scale.

[up] That would be why I always use Tutu to make Dynaheir a generic mage, since her default class sucks.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
LOEADITOOx .... from -???- Since: Feb, 2011
Blissey1 insert title here from a random Pokècenter Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
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#187: Sep 30th 2011 at 8:00:37 PM

honestly, going multi/dual class in BG is generally not a good idea as far as min/maxing goes, with a few exceptions. Some of those exceptions being mage/thief multiclass and wizard/fighter(or kensai in bg2) dual class.

edited 30th Sep '11 8:00:52 PM by Blissey1

XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#188: Oct 1st 2011 at 5:02:30 AM

[up][up][up] Definitely a Master of None character. When considering multi-classes, you need them to complement each other, and you need to consider how one character's restrictions affect another. So a Fighter/Thief has issues with equipment, since until the Thief gets the 10th level ability Use All Items, it's stuck with thief weapons, which are definitely not those of a front-line attacker. It can certainly work, you just need to consider its role - exploit the 5 proficiency points with weapons like Short Swords and Bows for the extra power, and hit from the side or back while your other characters distract the enemy.

With a Barbarian though, you're relying on raw physical power that a Thief just can't bring to the table, and a Druid is focussed entirely elsewhere to the other two classes. Rangers work well with Druids/Clerics, because they're often superb ranged/non-front line fighters anyway, while still retaining the capacity to hit on the front if necessary. Hell, there's a reason a Ranger/Cleric can actually solo the entire trilogy.

Thief/Druid/Barbarian though is mixing up too much, and it won't be able to fulfill any of its roles effectively.

edited 1st Oct '11 5:03:13 AM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
metaphysician Since: Oct, 2010
#189: Oct 1st 2011 at 7:57:06 AM

Actually, I gave the topic some thought, and from a pure mechanical perspective, almost none of the multiclass options are worthwhile. Fighter/Anything, for example, is almost always inferior to just Anything on a purely mechanical basis: you lose more from splitting your XP and being lower level than you gain from the Fighter class. This makes Jaheira particularly irksome, as her Fighter multi literally gives her nothing ( even the weapon and armor options are nullified by her Druid class restrictions ). I would love a mod that converts her to a plain Druid.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com
Blissey1 insert title here from a random Pokècenter Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I know
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#190: Oct 1st 2011 at 9:17:41 AM

actually, her fighter multi gives her the ability to get 5 star weapon proficiency and better HP. I think.

edited 1st Oct '11 9:18:25 AM by Blissey1

XP granted for befriending a giant magical spider!
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#191: Oct 1st 2011 at 9:36:23 AM

She's an okay Magic Knight in the second game, as with Anomen.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
arimnaes Falls Up Since: Apr, 2009
Falls Up
#192: Oct 1st 2011 at 10:01:25 AM

Fighters make for poor multi-classing, in most cases, but they make for some great dual-classing. Taking either three or six levels in Fighter will let you rack up some nice weapon specialization and HP before switching over, which is great for any spellcaster and even better for a spellcaster who plans to be in melee.

If only you could dual-class into Sorcerer...

edited 1st Oct '11 10:01:59 AM by arimnaes

metaphysician Since: Oct, 2010
#193: Oct 1st 2011 at 10:44:49 AM

[up][up][up] The weapon specialization, yes, but not 5 dots. IIRC, you can only get up to 3 dots as a non single class Fighter.

As for HP? I calculated it out. For a given XP total, she'd have more experience as a single class Druid, because she'd have an extra two or so levels.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#194: Oct 1st 2011 at 10:53:30 AM

Hey hey, this discussion has caused me to start playing again, discovered my discs were scratched, but that for $20 I've got both games + expansions with an instant download! Gog.com has them, and they seem a decent site. You also get all the manuals, soundtrack, even maps.

Naturally, I'll end up spending several hours sorting out Tutu the way I like it before I can play though, and I'm definitely going to take the time to get a very good roll for my Sorceror.

Actually, I've never done a Let's Play before...

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
LOEADITOOx .... from -???- Since: Feb, 2011
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#196: Oct 1st 2011 at 11:04:22 AM

Modified AD&D 2.5 I believe.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
LOEADITOOx .... from -???- Since: Feb, 2011
....
#197: Oct 1st 2011 at 11:06:48 AM

Ah, now it makes sense, I always played with the 3.5A edition (Neverwinter Nigths 1 and 2)

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Xan-Xan/
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#198: Oct 1st 2011 at 11:45:31 AM

I'm amused by the dissing of multiclassing in BG. Typically I considered single classes, especially quite a lot of the kits in BG 2, to be horrible, at least for my preferred playstyles. The xp slowdown is a big thing at first, but when you're playing for 100% completion, you have more than enough xp, and the difference in a few levels at the high end for BG 2's expansion really is pretty ignorable. Mages have lots of great low and medium-level spells that synergize well with front line fighting for those fighter multiclasses, and if you focus on specific skills instead of trying to be a jack of all trades, a thief multiclass will be very competent at his chosen role while overall much less limited and fragile than a vanilla thief. Sure, multiclassers will be a few levels behind, but this will matter less the higher you get, and they'll make up for it with more well-rounded saving throws, more hp in many cases, and defensive/offensive capabilities.

The caveat is that I will agree that multiclassing is fairly subpar for clerical or druidic classes. They already have pretty good baseline stats and healing, and no great melee synergy spells like wizards get, so multiclassing them to fighter only to water down their potent spell pool is pretty pointless (hi, Jaheira). Cleric/mage is suboptimal in BG's 'you can rest pretty much anywhere to restore your spell slots' system, because you end up with too many spell choices and not enough time to cast them all, so your flexibility is wasted. Ranger/cleric has the same problems as fighter/cleric-or-druid, plus a seriously watered down spell selection for the ranger that might as well not be there. Cleric/thief just has no real synergy.

Of course, disregard all of the above if you're roleplaying and don't care that your character is relatively weak compared to other PC builds. Sometimes it's more fun to just go with a concept even if the mechanics don't support it perfectly.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#199: Oct 1st 2011 at 12:03:29 PM

A lot of it depends on the rest of your party. Unless you're soloing, you need to consider your characters with your other characters. Individual classes can be strong or weak, but who else they're fighting with will be a key indicator of their success.

For this playthrough, I'm going to consider who I have in my party, since I'm keeping Imoen. Okay, so she could just be a straight swap for Jan, but she has a very different playstyle from him (I typically give him the Katana +3 and Daystar for Magic Knight play, which isn't viable with Imoen). Or, he gets the Burning Crossbow +4 from the Watcher's Keep shop and does ranged fighting for me.

Jaheira will definitely stay (revival, summons and love interest), as will Keldorn. This is an entirely good alignment party, so Edwin, Korgan and Viconia are out. Minsc is an obvious partner to Keldorn. I've always opted for Anomen before, who does work decently well, but I lack a solid archer with this set up. Minsc is too good at melee to allow to linger there, if Anomen stays he dual wields Crom Faeyr and the Flail of Ages. Jaheira can't really do ranged beyond slings, which are effectively worthless.

I'm going to be a sorceror, by the way, and Staff of the Magi will obviously be my main weapon. Need to think how to get around my lack of a solid ranged character.

By the way, how does Imoen hold up as a Thief late-BG 2? Since she's dual classed, is she better than worthless? Might be worth me just keeping Jan anyway so I'm more ranged-heavy, using him for range but focussing on Imoen for my backup mage. Then it's a choice between Anomen and Minsc, with the latter probably winning out and using the same weapons.

edited 1st Oct '11 12:06:25 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
RL_Nice Bigfoot Puncher from a computer. Since: Jul, 2009
Bigfoot Puncher
#200: Oct 1st 2011 at 1:54:52 PM

Since I'm new and hearing (or rather, reading) all this talk of dual-classing, I just wanted to ask- if you dual-class, do you get the restrictions of both classes that you dual as?

A fistful of me.

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