Diagonalizing The Matrix
Well, if it's the shock aspect we can name it She's A He?!. Yay for punctuation
Diagonalizing The Matrix
Ok Lets line them up so we have
| Girls | Guys |
| Sweet Polly Oliver for Plot girl crossdresses as a guy to complete an objective. | Disguised in Drag |
| Sweet on Polly Oliver which is reveal to another person. | Dropped A Bridget On Him |
| Bifauxnen Girl looks like a Bishōnen in guys clothing. | Unknown counterpart |
| Unknown Counterpart | Dude Looks Like a Lady Guy looks like a girl |
| Unknown counterpart | Wholesome Crossdresser |
| Samus Is a Girl reveal to the Audience | Unknown counterpart |
Help me fill these in. (Any missing tropes?)
EDIT: Samus Is a Girl says
Samus Is a Girl does indirectly imply that its the counterpart.
edited 24th Aug '11 9:47:05 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!Unless we wanted to make this an Audience Reaction trope, I say we should keep it to in-universe only.
Hmm... Gender Shock could work, but I would like something better, if we can find it.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Diagonalizing The Matrix
A possible problem with Gender Shock is that it fits the mold of, say, Culture Shock, but is not analogous to it.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:07:26 AM by TripleElation
Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate toAn actual spear counterpart to Samus Is a Girl would be when the girl we have seen most of the movie is revealed in the movie or TV episode to the audiance to be a guy.
In almost all cases of that it would result in the Squick implied in Dropped A Bridget On Him but said Squick could easily come from Disguised in Drag or Wholesome Crossdresser (in where we already know it is).
This trope is treated as the larger trope. Making the smaller trope would be a good idea.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:06:06 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
No, that would not be the spear to Samus Is a Girl, since the important bit is that we've never been shown the character's gender one way or another, but acts like a badass before we are shown that they are female.
There's no way for it to have a spear counterpart since that would just be the badass character whose gender we don't know turns out to be just another badass guy.
The whole point of Samus Is a Girl is getting the audience to see a female protagonist as capable without the baggage of her gender. Men don't have that baggage.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:14:11 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick^ So you're saying that Badass is implicitly a masculine quality? Okay, that makes sense...
But what then is the Distaff Counterpart for Badass?
edited 24th Aug '11 11:00:37 AM by Stratadrake
An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.Thats only a little added bagage and symbolism that it can be. (anti-sexist) If ya look at most of the examples its not quite that.
IE: Zelda / Sheik, Faris of Final Fantasy V, Izanami and Naoto in Persona 4 and a lot more.
The examples are written around the Reveal that He is a She not that she was badass before the reveal.
The page says if its previously known its Sweet Polly Oliver and that page says if its a reveal to another person inside it and gets the Dropped A Bridget On Him in-universe reaction its Sweet on Polly Oliver.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:28:00 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Then those examples shouldn't be on that page. If they aren't using the trope right, they should be cut. Sheik is Sweet Polly Oliver. That trope is a woman dressing as a man to accomplish some goal. In this case, to save Hyrule.
The page is wrong about other tropes. This is a frequent issue.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:29:39 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickShiek isnt because we the viewer do not know that... Sweet Polly Oliver requires that the viewer know that and we (are probably) seeing things from her point of view.
Sweet Polly Oliver even says
edited 24th Aug '11 10:30:53 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Sweet Polly Oliver doesn't require that the audience knows. As you pointed out, the page even points out that they don't need to know.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:36:06 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickIts not though and its NOT YMMV... Some of them go to extreme lengths to make sure its a surprise using Bokukko or calling her a He. or even just going the whole I Am A Guy route.
Its YMMV if it worked or not but the attempted surprise and shock is not YMMV. (Naoto from Persona 4 is a good example of that.)
Viewer Gender Confusion is YMMV.
Viewer Gender Confusion even says
Viewer Gender Confusion is Dude Looks Like a Lady but Audience Reaction.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:36:39 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!A character can actually be both of those tropes. I have no idea where YMMV came into this.
They can be a woman crossdressing as a man to accomplish a goal: Sweet Polly Oliver.
And then also be a badass character whose gender is revealed to the audience to be female after she proves she's a badass: Samus Is a Girl.
Whoever wrote these compare and contrasts apparently read none of the tropes in question.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:37:24 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickThe compare and contrasts make sense and have been there as far back as history will go back.
And ya know what the tropes are all used that way too.
And I brought up YMMV is you keep saying any reveal is Viewer Gender Confusion but its not. Its just a Viewer who thinks Dude Looks Like a Lady.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:42:28 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
The compare and contrasts are all inconsistent with each other and none of them match the actual trope pages. The fact that they're there as far as the history goes back just means that the person who made the page misunderstood the other tropes. It doesn't make them right. The trope pages are the authority on this. Not a bunch of conflicting compare and contrasts.
Except for the pages are used that way, completely used that way.
I am saying lets hammer this out and even them up but discuss the genderflipped differences in each and the reasons why they might be used. Not make them so insanely specific as using one reason why or one way the trope is used like the writeups carry right now which have lead to massive misuse in the examples (I havent even bothered to check the wicks.).
So we might make these tropes ALL make sense with each other and not get shoehorning of examples that should fit... Hence my list. Renaming this trope will not help a damn thing and the misuse for the broader usage will not stop as well.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:53:03 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!You encouraging misuse is not going to help things and not all of them have gender flipped counterparts. Yes, people are misusing them. Viewer Gender Confusion especially seems to get confused for Samus Is a Girl and Dropped A Bridget On Him.
What we seem to need is a non-YMMV trope for intentional Viewer Gender Confusion. Maybe called it Gender Reveal? Have it be both for female and male characters and then we will actually have the supertrope that people are looking for so that they stop shoehorning bad examples into the subtropes.
I think that making the missing supertrope would work better than trying to shoehorn bits of it badly into other tropes with solid definitions.
edited 24th Aug '11 10:54:38 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickI am not encouraging misuse I am making it so that the pages make sense.
Right now they dont at all they are a jumbled mess of random crap that do not make much sense at all and even creating that trope will not stop the misuse these tropes have all existed for far too long (thinking 3 to 4 years for Samus and Bridget) and have been used that way constantly.
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!Do things like this counterparts
| Girls | Guys |
| Sweet Polly Oliver | Disguised in Drag |
| Sweet on Polly Oliver | Dropped A Bridget On Him |
| Samus Is a Girl | Unknown new trope |
Samus Is a Girl is being used for anyone who got the gender reveal. (I even see a few gender inversions on that page.) Make it so it discusses the reasons why it got the gender hidden in the first place (which is most of the current description.) It is what its used for right now. If it crosses with Sweet Polly Oliver (in that they did it for a reason) that's fine.
Make a male specific version of it. where the she suddenly became a he. Might use "Watashi" as a personal pronoun change in voice tone etc or even padding All of these came up in Maria Holic and I can think of more than a few examples etc.
Bifauxnen has its own thread to create a counterpart with Dude Looks Like a Lady.
edited 24th Aug '11 11:05:47 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!Samus Is a Girl is a specific type of gender reveal. A general supertrope would be better than widening it especially as gender reveals to the audience aren't in general are treated much the same if it's male or female. It's the fact that this is establishing the character as a badass that makes the trope different.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickWhich would mess with 90% of the examples of the page.
And they are (generally) treated as inversions to each other.
A Previously thought to be male but turns out to be female is usually imbed with Male qualities before the reveal such as Badass or Manlyness. As well as using Bokukko and other things.
A Previously thought to be female but turns out to be male is imbed with girly qualities before the reveal. Most would be called Moe, might be The Chick, using a Parasol, Girly Run And in the case of Bridget a Yoyo. Probably uses Washi or Watashi. occasionally catches themselves using boku and corrects themselves (there are many reasons why this is so effective in Japan compared to the US.)
BTW based on this I changed my vote. Bridget is being used for the greater trope... IMO its fine for renaming the more specific version we just need the bigger trope. (which this current name should redirect to)
edited 24th Aug '11 11:22:40 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Crown Description:

FFS I cant find it but I was on a page last night claiming that this is specifically for "the Bomb" drop of that its a Crossdresser for both the person in question who learns this AND the reveal to the audience that it is this too.
Or was it Sweet on Polly Oliver Seriously wtf is up between those two names (Sweet Polly Oliver and Sweet on Polly Oliver....)
edited 24th Aug '11 9:34:25 AM by Raso
Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!