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SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#26: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:16:51 PM

[up][up][up]

What Sackett said.

One thing he missed is that a lot of the "generic harem" shows each season are based on Visual Novels, and as such the protagonist was very intentionally left as a blank slate. They often suffer from trying to appease the fans of all the girls, and generally end up failing to make any of the girls interesting at all.

Sometimes this does work, Kanon gave all the girls excellent treatment, with the possible exception of Nayuki, but that was a result of them going with Ayu's ending. The other girls could have their plots resolved without explicitly being romantic partners.

Similarly, in Clannad its never really a question of who Tomoya will end up with (spoiler: He gets together with Nagisa), since its made abundantly clear from the very beginning. The other girl's stories serve to accentuate and enhance the core romance, though this does mean that the storylines which were inherently contradictory to the core Nagisa plot were largely ignored (cue raging Kyou and Tomoyo fans). But given the nature of Clannad, and even more so, Clannad After Story, this was rather unavoidable.

But of course, Kanon and Clannad are not your everyday Visual Novels, and Kyo Ani is not your everyday animation studio. So comparing those shows to say, Hoshizora E Kakaru Hashi (to choose a particularly vapid and generic example from last season, which I only watched because I'm one of those people Sackett mentions who watches way too goddamn many shows) isn't very fair.

edited 18th Aug '11 9:17:34 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#27: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:21:14 PM

Kanon and Clannad in particular don't have fill in the blank personality protagonists in the first place. Clannad wouldn't work if it did.

edited 18th Aug '11 9:21:34 PM by Arha

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#28: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:23:41 PM

[up]

Precisely, I thought I mentioned that, but I guess I assumed it went as a given.

There's nothing wrong with a blank-slate protagonist in a VN, but it tends to work less well in an animated medium.

And of course this doesn't excuse the horrid male leads found in any number of non-VN derived "harem" shows...

djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#29: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:30:46 PM

[up]Ok... So they should all just give the Protagonist a satisfying background? Like he broke a leg or something preventing him to play a sport or he's actually a girl or such....

Ok... I'm beginning to see your POV's. So to make me don't need to clarify a few more things I would like to ask your favorite harem anime.

edited 18th Aug '11 9:34:17 PM by djmaca

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#30: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:36:43 PM

[up]

No, they have to make them a good character.

Its the difference between someone like Tomoya and someone like, oh, say Yuuki Rito

djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#31: Aug 18th 2011 at 9:55:19 PM

[up]We all hell know To-Love-Ru is going to be as pointless as a circle long before it did.

edited 18th Aug '11 10:04:01 PM by djmaca

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#32: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:03:55 PM

[up]

I'm not going to play shifting goalposts with you, the age of the example is immaterial, To Love Ru anime is roughly contemporaneous with Clannad's anime, so it makes for a good example. Not to mention that the most recent season, Motto To Love Ru aired at the end of last year, which is plenty recent.

djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#33: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:13:28 PM

I'm not going to play shifting goalposts with you

What makes you think that?

In anycase if you prefer to use an MC from a show worthless from the start then BMG. And uh, to tell you guys the truth I think that many harem animes today are modded off from the good ones in the past. I mean, a childhood promise, being a determinator and getting into accidental pervert situations... Isn't that all too common now that it can be called generic too? It seems to me that calling one generic is a YMMV thing afterall.

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#34: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:14:49 PM

[up]

Who says To Love Ru was inherently trash? And thats pretty much shifting goalposts.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#35: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:17:21 PM

n anycase if you prefer to use an MC from a show worthless from the start then BMG. And uh, to tell you guys the truth I think that many harem animes today are modded off from the good ones in the past. I mean, a childhood promise, being a determinator and getting into accidental pervert situations... Isn't that all too common now that it can be called generic too? It seems to me that calling one generic is a YMMV thing afterall.

First point: Accepting for the moment that the show I never watched is bad... So the worthless show had the boring protagonist, and one of the most beloved anime I know has the three dimensional protagonist with a fully formed personality? Man, what are the odds?

Second point: Yes. We call them clones.

Third point: Yes, they're cliches. I've already noted that the accidental pervert stuff is way overdone.

Fourth point: No, see, you can watch a series and say 'This show offered nothing new as compared to this other show because that show did blah blah blah blah while this show did the same thing I've seen a thousand times before in exactly the same ways.'

edited 18th Aug '11 10:17:47 PM by Arha

djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#36: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:18:51 PM

Uh, me? I read ch1 the first time it was releases and found it and as boring as hell.

Edit; Ok fine: I read up until the alien's little sisters we're introduced and when the giant flytrap evolved. Then it got boring.

And your fourth point apply to any series?

edited 18th Aug '11 10:24:50 PM by djmaca

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#37: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:20:28 PM

Wow, you read an entire chapter. Informed viewpoint there.

Yes, my fourth point applies to all series with certain cliches changing depending on genre. Not that we're talking about them right now.

edited 18th Aug '11 10:21:04 PM by Arha

SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#38: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:22:39 PM

TLR being terrible in general isn't really the the point at hand here anyway.

You can have a decent male protagonist and still have a shitty show. Granted I can't really think of one offhand, but I'm sure it exists.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#39: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:54:01 PM

@ Arha

Body types generally fill the spectrum out of fetish fuel. Personalities often match appearance in well recognized ways

We really need to fit that in a trope page...

And really lets not rag on series here. Its only going to get this thread locked FAST.

edited 18th Aug '11 10:54:59 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#40: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:58:40 PM

Well, you should probably make a TRS shop about it with examples like saying The Ojou is usually a lot bustier than the rest of the girls. The tsundere is on the slim to normal proportions range with certain hairstyles like twintails to denote childishiness and, I think, a tendency to wear mini skirts and zettai ryouiki. I kind of don't care enough to start that up.

edited 18th Aug '11 10:59:11 PM by Arha

Ever9 from Europe Since: Jul, 2011
#41: Aug 19th 2011 at 4:53:24 AM

The point being made is that there are harem series (Love Hina, Ai Yori Aoshi, etc), there are also other series that have some elements of harem series but are focused on other things (Code Geass, Full Metal Panic!), and some shows that combine extensive harem elements with other genres, (Hayate the Combat Butler, Tenchi Muyo!, Ranma ½).

Pure Harem series have several problems:

1: The tendency to have a flat uninteresting protagonist (because the girls are the focus)

2: Nothing going on in the plot except for the harem conflict. It's hard to make interesting and fresh.

Though, isn't that true for every genre?

Genres are basically collections of supertropes. Outlines. Frameworks. A show that is nothing more than a "pure genre", is nothing more than an empty framework. Of course, that is bad, most of the times. (exceptions being genre launchers, kids' gateway stuff, intentionally simplified reconstructions, etc.)

What I'm saying is, that it doesn't even really make sense to bring up Harem Genre as a specific example. It just brings up unneccessary implications that this genre is bad in it's pure form, while the genre itself isn't even really the issue. Like, if there is a new fantasy novel about The Chosen One trying to stop the Evil Overlord with a magical sword, while uniting elves and dwarves against orcs, and there is really noting much more to it, the accusation isn't that it's "just pure fantasy", as if that term itself would be an insult, but that it's a generic, boring story, period. But if it also happens to have great dramatic writing, you still don't need to "redeem" it as "More than fantasy, a drama with some fantasy elements".

Likewise, even if something like To Love Ru has a very generic harem plot, there is not much more point in discussing the fact that it's framework happens to be a harem, than any other generic work that also happens to have a main genre.

djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#42: Aug 19th 2011 at 5:44:00 AM

What I'm saying is, that it doesn't even really make sense to bring up Harem Genre as a specific example.

The reason I brought this up is because I'm confused as to why people abhor harem genre. I just wanted examples of what is considered Harem. Before my definition of a harem show is a purely romantic story of a boy meets girls. I expect of a harem that romance is the major plot.

I don't consider a show harem if they're on a quest to defeat a Big Bad is the major plot. Or winning a tournament or anything non-romantic as the plot.

edited 19th Aug '11 5:45:56 AM by djmaca

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
Sackett Since: Jan, 2001
#43: Aug 19th 2011 at 6:31:02 AM

[up][up] Exactly, which is why I mentioned at the end of my wall of text that the same contempt and ridicule is offered towards other shows in different genres that have similar flaws.

Harem I think tends to get a little extra hostility. Probably because it's a common combo to throw in to the mix. Just make a bunch of the sidekicks in an action show girls who are attracted to the male lead and you suddenly get a harem combined with your action show. ("Two fanbases for the price of one," said the marketing directors.)

Then fans of the action genre get really upset because there is this poorly done gratuitous harem genre sitting in the middle of their action show.

[up] Shows are not exclusively one genre. Harem genre is easily mixed with others, so it's a pretty common thing.

fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#44: Aug 19th 2011 at 6:51:38 AM

[up][up] It's really just the same deal with moe and shonen shows - since the audience is relatively larger you expect that there'll be more detractors. YMMV and all that.

And really, criticizing a work for being of a certain genre is generally just subjective complaining.

edited 19th Aug '11 6:52:42 AM by fillerdude

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#45: Aug 19th 2011 at 7:02:44 AM

I still find my idea for a Harem show on the Winter 2012 thread to be a interesting Harem Series idea.

Watch Symphogear
djmaca Secret Character from Philippines Since: Apr, 2010
Secret Character
#46: Aug 19th 2011 at 7:17:22 AM

[up][lol] Yes.... yes it is.

[up][up] criticizing a work for being of a certain genre is generally just subjective complaining. I don't know how to respond to that, everyone seems to complain about a certain genre if we follow that line of thought.

[up][up][up] So it is, but then what if the harem and romance is tossed aside as a side plot, like in Negima? Everyone knows it isn't harem anymore, which is what is supposed to be from the start. Then the author screw Executive Meddling and did what he wants, which is the most awesome thing I ever heard about.

...a little brother should belong to his older sister, right? - Orimura Chifuyu
Ever9 from Europe Since: Jul, 2011
#47: Aug 19th 2011 at 7:41:23 AM

[up]And I believe, that this expectation, that the Harem Genre must give the "major plot", is already too much of a burden to expect from any genre, and is part of the reason why some people might abhor it:

Let's list some other genres:

There are many other genres, and even some other genre categories, but that's enough to make a point:

Between categories, these genres can be, and normally are, mixed. Insisting that the one with the most focus is the main genre, would be weird.

Could you choose between the focus on "fantasy themes", and "horror themes"? One is a setting, the other is an atmosphere. Can a work stop being fantasy, even if it takes place on a land with dragons and elves, just because it is too scary?

Is Wild Wild West a western, or a Buddy Cop Show? Would focusing too much on the protagonists' buddy cop relationship detract from the fact that it takes place at the wild west? Or maybe focusing too much on the western style takes away from it's buddy cop-ness?

Relationship dynamics genres, plot direction genres, and setting genres, are not competiting with each other. A work stops being a harem story, when a large amount of girls stop chasing a single guy, not when it also has certain other plot directions, and settings.

Ever9 from Europe Since: Jul, 2011
#48: Aug 19th 2011 at 7:56:33 AM

Harem I think tends to get a little extra hostility. Probably because it's a common combo to throw in to the mix

I think, it is also partially because of the whole "entirely foreign cultural concept" thing, that established anime genres in general, get lots of hostility from anime fans, more than other media.

I mean, in the west, you just get used to the fact that things like romance novels, superhero comics, or action movies. They become "natural", obvious parts of the world, you just don't think about, for example, why it's always a Perma Stubble-d Cowboy Cop shooting at the bad guys. Then you learn about Harem Anime, or Magical Girls, Shonen Fighting series, and after a short culture shock of seeing them as incredibly original, you watch more, and start recognizing the patterns for the first time. The reaction: "WTF is wrong with these japanese, that the protagonist is always an Ordinary High-School Student? That's becoming soo cliche!"

fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#49: Aug 19th 2011 at 8:53:50 AM

@ djmaca That's really what I was getting at. People who complain about the harem genre simply don't like harem tropes or have never seen a harem work that they like. It's perfectly fine as long as it's not just blind bashing.

[up][up][up] That would be a Genre Shift, then. Simple as that. Instead of a harem it just has harem elements.

[up] That could explain why I'm not what you'd call a picky watcher.

edited 19th Aug '11 8:54:51 AM by fillerdude

Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#50: Aug 19th 2011 at 12:30:12 PM

I kind of agree with some earlier concepts, if "pure harem" automatically becomes a pejorative it's not really a good genré descriptor. (Which is not to say there aren't problemaic aspects embedded in the genré, there are, mostly sexism/objectification issues)

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent

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