TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Named after an unrelated pre-existing term: Deconstruction

Go To

CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#76: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:42:35 PM

It's the supertrope. It applies when people don't know where to put things. It shouldn't show up in actual examples, but its fine for potholes.

Why do we even...

Nah, fuck this.

We have Reality Ensues for when a trope is played realistically. This trope defines the concept as it is being used in this context.

We have Deconstructor Fleet for when a work plays many tropes realistically, rather than one or two at a time.

We have Genre Deconstructor, for cases like the Puella Magi Madoka Magica as people keep calling it a deconstruction- taking the elements of a genre and playing them realistically (I don't care if it's truly a deconstruction or not, that's a debate for another thread).

And then we have Deconstructor as a supertrope. What is the point of this trope? Is it defining the concept? No- Reality Ensues does that. Does it list all the subtropes under it? Pointless- there's only two that can easily be added under a sentence like "See Deconstructor Fleet for when a work does this to many tropes at once", etc.

So, what purpose is it serving?

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#77: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:46:37 PM

Reality Ensues is for isolated moments—think of it like a little Mind Screw for the audience.

A full on deconstruction will tear apart an entire genre.

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#78: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:50:18 PM

A full on deconstruction will tear apart an entire genre.

then why do we have Genre Deconstruction

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#79: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:52:26 PM

That's what Genre Deconstruction is.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#80: Aug 18th 2011 at 10:59:07 PM

That's what I meant. I feel like I'm in an Abbot And Costello routine.

Somehow we're all agreeing and disagreeing simultaneously.

Anyways, here's some more evidence of the term being used in the vein I've been advocating. http://www.avclub.com/articles/lights-camera-deconstruction-19-movies-that-double,47629/

EDIT: Ah, well, there's a comma near the end there screwing up the link. Anyways, it's a real article if you search "Deconstruction Film" on google.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:04:38 PM by ArtemisStrong

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#81: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:00:59 PM

Link doesn't work.

But the point at hand is this: "Why have Deconstruction, then?"

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#82: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:04:16 PM

Where's that XKCD strip... Ah, here we go.

The word 'Deconstruction' can be used in this context to mean something similar to how we define it, yes. However, it also has multiple other meanings, all related to literary criticism.

The trope name is one which can be interpreted in multiple ways, depending on how you've seen the term used before. If you come from a profession which uses the more serious ones, then you're going to have no idea what anyone is referring to when somebody says 'Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a Deconstruction of the Magical Girl genre.'

Meanwhile, the trope Reality Ensues cover everything that the Deconstruction trope does, without having the multiple meanings attached to it.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#83: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:04:50 PM

As for the link, delete the '%20' in the U Rl when you open it and it'll work fine.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#84: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:05:56 PM

No, deconstruction isn't just putting real life stuff into movies. It implies analysis, criticism, reinvention...

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#85: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:07:26 PM

Deconstruction does.

Deconstruction does not.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#86: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:07:42 PM

Or a post genre look at the tropes used within.

Please.
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#87: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:08:13 PM

It implies analysis, criticism, reinvention...

Yes, but the actual trope doesn't. All the actual trope does is take tropes to their logical (I.E realistic) conclusion.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#88: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:14:06 PM

I guess what I'm saying is Genre Deconstruction pretty much says what needs to be said as far as most of the material on the wiki (and if people are using it as shorthand for Darker and Edgier, that seems like another issue), and Deconstruction is a supertrope, one of the Lit. Class Tropes, a metaconcept type dealie.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:15:08 PM by ArtemisStrong

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#89: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:17:09 PM

If deconstruction is a Lit Class Trope...then why does it go against the actual definition that most literature students receive and learn?

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#90: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:22:22 PM

I'm saying it shouldn't. It should be edited. It should have the history of the term, but also acknowledge this newerish, less academic use of the term. I think there's enough use of it as a movie trope (and I mean "trope" in the more traditional sense) that the Deconstruction page should point to Genre Deconstruction as a subtrope.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:22:53 PM by ArtemisStrong

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#91: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:27:32 PM

So, in essence, you are proposing a complete rewrite of the current Deconstruction article to talk about all the types of Deconstructions around, including the one we are currently talking about, and linking to the various Deconstruction-esque tropes (Reality Ensues, Genre Deconstructor and Deconstructor Fleet) there.

Meanwhile, we would use Reality Ensues as the trope for what Deconstruction is at the moment.

Yes?

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#92: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:32:42 PM

Hmmm, interesting. I kinda like your solution, Artemis.

Although I wish this place also recognized the old definition as well. As it is, it is unrecognized because...something.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#93: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:38:28 PM

Honestly, Madoka Magica isn't even a Deconstruction, it doesn't apply "reality" to the tropes at hand, it just takes place in a harsher world than the average Magical Girl show.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#94: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:40:17 PM

[up] This oh so much... however you tell that to the hardcore fans who just claim its this.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#95: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:40:51 PM

Yes. But that's a conversation for a different thread, please.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#96: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:43:02 PM

I don't think it is relevant to the discussion at hand whether X show qualifies or doesn't for an Alan Moore award for best deconstruction right now, so may I please ask to keep this on topic?

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum Since: Jun, 2011
Wizard/Father of Tom
#97: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:45:33 PM

Yeah, it definitely needs the academic, literary definition on top and dominant.

I like getting into the high concept stuff like Deconstruction, Satire, and Three-Act Structure (I prefer the term Freytag'sPyramid myself) that underpins everything else on the site.

I'm also a fan of holding on to the origins of terms, even if people "aren't familiar" with them. Because I think a secret benefit of this site is its ability to educate, inform, and expand users' vocabularies. I never knew heard of Tsundere until I came here, but am glad I know it now.

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#98: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:48:34 PM

Not really I mean we redo this and suddenly entire fanbases are misusing it completely... but its a source of pride that it is a "Deconstruction" of the Magical Girl well everything is going to lead to issues..

edited 18th Aug '11 11:52:42 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
SakurazakiSetsuna Together Forever... Since: Jun, 2010
Together Forever...
#99: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:48:52 PM

[up][up][up]

Isn't misuse a rather large part of this discussion? I'm not interested in having an in depth discussion on Madoka Magica, but pointing out that the term is being used for works that it doesn't apply to seems relevant.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:49:03 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#100: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:54:12 PM

Hm, true, I suppose.

But the problem (From where I see it) is whether this misuse comes from the organization of the Deconstruction tropes (From what I understand, Genre Deconstruction and Deconstructor Fleet are pretty much "Deconstruction focused on genre" and the second one is...um...the same?)

Not to mention that from when it currently stands, there isn't much of a difference between Reality Ensues and deconstruction. as such, we have four tropes affected by misuse, and we need to get around rewriting the pages, reevaluating them, etc etc.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

PageAction: Deconstruction
2nd Sep '11 8:10:04 AM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

Total posts: 178
Top