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Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#751: Oct 18th 2024 at 8:32:19 AM

Noticed this tread in SH 2's case with people not liking the remake even suggesting to emulate the original game. I think it feels like gatekeeping imo let people enjoy both.

Just Makima.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#752: Oct 21st 2024 at 5:32:11 AM

And here's the Fatbrett vid analyzing Maria:

Spoilers obviously.

Fatbrett's analysis states that Maria is a tragic character who is twisted by Silent Hill and James' own messed up emotions into a monster. Like Pyramid Head, she's a Tulpa created by Silent Hill to reflect James' twisted psyche. But unlike Pyramid Head, Maria's an actual sentient thinking person who wants to be more than just James' externalization of his inner demons. So while Pyramid Head was willing to off himself once James said he didn't need him anymore, Maria fights as the Final Boss.

Fatbrett has stated he'll do one last Silent Hill 2 video covering the rest of the game and its characters in general.

Edited by M84 on Oct 21st 2024 at 8:38:21 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#753: Oct 21st 2024 at 8:49:57 AM

Is there a version of the "Born From A Wish" scenario in the remake? Because it was pretty explicit that this is indeed the read (or at least a valid one) on Maria.

Edited by diddyknux on Oct 21st 2024 at 8:51:03 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#754: Oct 21st 2024 at 10:31:28 AM

It is not in the remake afaik.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#755: Oct 21st 2024 at 10:47:15 AM

[up] Given how well SH2R did, both critically and commercially, I could see Konami deciding that it might be a good idea to have it as paid DLC later down the line.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#756: Oct 21st 2024 at 10:56:03 AM

"Born from a Wish" is okay and tragic but without it, there's no tragedy to Maria.

Because Maria arguably doesn't exist outside of James' mind as a hallucination.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#757: Oct 21st 2024 at 9:16:54 PM

[up][up] They made Ada's Remake story DLC content most likely the same for her.

Just Makima.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#758: Oct 21st 2024 at 9:34:17 PM

Looking back, I think what made SH 2 stand out for me among horror games is how it tries to scare you. Yes, it has the horrible freaky monsters. But that's typical horror fare. SH 2's true horror comes from realizing you're playing as a monster. You're the bad guy. The horrible shit James experiences in SH 2 is just a reflection of his own warped thoughts and feelings after he murdered Mary. Videogames are tailored to make the player feel like they are the pov character. So when the game reveals that you're not the hero but the villain of the story, it stings.

Other horror media does this too, but I think SH 2 is the gold standard for this particular twist.

Edited by M84 on Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:34:36 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#759: Oct 21st 2024 at 9:41:57 PM

The fact they're willing to go all the way with James is why it works.

It's why Downpour is a failure.

The protagonist there arguably doesn't have anything to feel guilty for.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#760: Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:30:56 AM

Granted in Downpour the Bogeyman doesn't need Murphy to be a monster for real. The whole point of the Bogeyman is that it embodies the dehumanization of people by those with a grudge (warranted or not) against them. So Anne will still see Murphy as the Bogeyman unless she lets go of her desire for revenge.

Edited by M84 on Oct 23rd 2024 at 3:31:52 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#761: Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:47:27 AM

I strongly suspect the original plot of Downpour was a Bait-and-Switch. Murphy is being chased by the Bogeyman for what appears to be killing the pedophile murderer of his son which, if not legal, a lot of people would understand (particularly gamers playing a violent revenge fantasy). Then we find out that Murphy had to kill an innocent guard (Coleridge) to get access to do it and he becomes a lot darker character.

And the revenge against him becomes justified.

Or does it?

However, the plot became nonsensical with the multiple choice element and the fact Murphy can end up not even killing his son's murderer.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:48:40 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#762: Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:51:03 AM

The point is that it didn't really matter if it had a sound reason for it or not. When you hate someone enough to want them dead, you're going to demonize them. You're going to see them as an inhuman monster. The Bogeyman is simply Silent Hill's twisted way of externalizing that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#763: Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:53:45 AM

The Multiple-Choice Past element of Downpour was so weird, yeah, with Murphy's level of guilt changing depending on what ending you get - from being innocent of everything in the best ending to guilty of everything (even the supposed pedophile turning out to be a fall guy here) in the worst. I mean I... guess there's precedent in the worst ending of SH1 having everything be a Dying Dream, but...

Edited by HamburgerTime on Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:54:08 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#764: Oct 22nd 2024 at 12:55:55 AM

Shattered Memories also did the multiple choice past thing, but that actually worked. That's because the whole point was that Heather didn't really know everything about her father and created a Frankenstein's Monster (as the therapist put it) image of him in her mind (which we've been playing as the whole game).

Disgusted, but not surprised
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#765: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:50:47 AM

Videogames are tailored to make the player feel like they are the pov character. So when the game reveals that you're not the hero but the villain of the story, it stings.

I actually think this is a trap that too many games fall into, where creating a character the players can identify with and justify often comes at the expense of creating a character that is actually psychologically and aesthetically interesting. Other forms of media can do this too, but game developers in particular seemed locked into this mindset and it's part of the reason so many of them struggle to be compelling.

(Even more than writers and developers falling into this trap, the real problem is when the audience makes this mistake. A big reason some people struggle with some more complicated stories is because they expect the protagonists to be someone sympathetic, or someone they can "identify with", and that's not always the case. Especially outside of children's and YA literature, and especially non-didactic literature. It's why you get people whine that nobody is sympathetic or relatable, and sometimes they go a step further and say that someone who writes and enjoys these stories must secretly want to experience the horrible things the characters do.)

It's why Silent Hill 2 is so important to me, even almost two decades after I first played it. While James has an "every man" quality that allows much of the audience to identify with him at first, the more James becomes a more unique and interesting character even if he also becomes more selfish and perhaps even loathsome. It's not the first example I was aware of, but it was my first video game example, and I think it helped me appreciate authors like Nabokov (obviously, Humbert is someone even more contemptible than James) or Tolstoy as I got more into reading.

Proglottid Since: Mar, 2010
#766: Oct 22nd 2024 at 9:57:41 AM

I've always found fascinating that even if the best possible route you can take highlights how selfish James can get, the ending neither white-washes or demonizes him. James felt trapped and wanted his life back, and he loved his wife so much he sought to finally bring her peace, and the remake further implies she had consented all along.

Wanting pain to end once and for all even though it means losing a loved one forever is neither truly good or truly evil. It's just one of the most human things there is.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#767: Oct 22nd 2024 at 4:59:23 PM

[up][up]

SH 2 makes the twist work even better since one of the reasons James is drawn to Silent Hill is because he wants to live out a fantasy where he's the hero who saves the damsel in distress. He wants to be able to save someone since he couldn't save Mary. James is trying to play the role of the hero, only to eventually realize he's the bad guy.

Edited by M84 on Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:02:42 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#768: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:02:45 PM

Eh, that's going a bit far.

James never really expresses any real attraction to Maria or desire to save or protect her.

He's creeped the fuck out by Succubus version of his wife.

And ironically, this is probably his salvation.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#769: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:07:06 PM

You forget. Maria is born from James' wishes. She is partly formed from his mind. If she acts all flirty and seductive one moment and helpless and scared and needy the next, it's because she embodies James' own messed up and conflicting emotions.

James not really responding to all of that is because a part of him also knows the truth. He's not a hero and he's not going to save anyone in Silent Hill except maybe himself.

James is a remarkably fucked up person. His best ending is him coming to grips with that and deciding he's done with this weird self-flagellating bullshit Silent Hill is manifesting for him.

Edit:

I say "partly" in that first bit for a reason. Maria expressing concern for Laura early on isn't something from James. James never knew Laura or knew that Mary and Laura had a bond. Maria isn't all about James — at first anyway.

Edited by M84 on Oct 22nd 2024 at 11:21:01 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#770: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:22:10 PM

Part of why I don't like "Born from a Wish" is because I think Maria works best as not existing independently of James.

She may have wanted to adopt Laura but Laura can't even see her.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#771: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:27:17 PM

IMHO it increases the tragedy of Maria. She's not like Pyramid Head or the other monsters. She's an actual person. Silent Hill created an actual person...to suffer and die horribly repeatedly because James is a fucked up person.

The final boss fight with Maria is basically her raging against the role she was assigned and refusing to give up and die — the way Pyramid Head did — just because James doesn't need her anymore.

She may have wanted to adopt Laura but Laura can't even see her.

We don't actually know if that's the case. Notice that Maria never actually interacted with her or even interacts with anyone else in the base game. It's possible they could see Maria if they actually met her. We see in "Born from a Wish" that Maria is able to talk to others besides James.

Edited by M84 on Oct 22nd 2024 at 11:31:24 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#772: Oct 22nd 2024 at 8:34:33 PM

To be fair all the people Maria talks to are ghosts.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#773: Oct 22nd 2024 at 9:58:39 PM

Guys unless this game has deviating plot points Silent Hill 2 has been available for years. I don't think the remake counts as new territory. It's a new release with the same plot?

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#774: Oct 22nd 2024 at 10:03:31 PM

"Pyramid Head is one of those villains that work for only one story, but they have to keep bringing back because he's too popular despite how little sense it makes."

I call this the sheldon cooper syndrome: a chararter does well it end demanding more of it even at the expent of others.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#775: Oct 22nd 2024 at 10:39:15 PM

[up][up]Yeah but there might be new comers to the game due to the remake here. You don’t have to spoiler hide anything if you don’t want. I can’t make you, after all.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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