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Preventing works being put on the main space.

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#1: Aug 16th 2011 at 2:51:25 PM

So, a couple of things come to mind.

1) A special edit tag for blank pages that says works need to go on the proper Name Space.

2) Block the "work" option from "set page type" on main.

Fight smart, not fair.
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#2: Aug 16th 2011 at 3:34:00 PM

Before we do something that draconian, IMHO we need to hash out a comprehensive list of official namespaces that cover every possibility, and get them added to the New Edits filter. (For instance, IIRC we never did figure out a concrete admin-approved answer for where to put people, multiple media works, and things like settings and franchises.)

And did we ever fix the bug that some of the two-word namespaces had where custom titles didn't work?

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Aug 16th 2011 at 3:40:33 PM

^ Definitely, and no, not yet.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#4: Aug 16th 2011 at 7:07:05 PM

Off the top of my head, we could probably use:

Advertisement.

Anime.

Comedian.

Comicbook.

Comic Strip.

Fan Fic. (I'd rather see this become Internet Literature or something)

Film. (what do we do with Film Live Action and Film Animated?)

Literature.

Machinima. (does this come up often enough to not be lumped in under animation or Web Original?)

Magazine.

Manga. (organized by artist, which should be works, not creators, right?)

Music.

Poetry.

Roleplay.

Series. (used for Live Action TV - a legacy of TV Tropes origins)

Tabletop Game.

Theatre.

Video Game.

Webcomic.

Web Original. (things distributed on the internet that don't fall under a different category)

Western Animation.

Fight smart, not fair.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#5: Aug 16th 2011 at 7:07:40 PM

I could probably come up with a different set that encompasses and lumps in most of the others if desired though.

Fight smart, not fair.
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#6: Aug 16th 2011 at 7:30:51 PM

Multiple Media/Multimedia (Basically a single storyline/work told in installments spread over multiple formats.)

Franchises

Settings/"-Verses"

Toys

Pro Wrestling

Radio, Script Readings, and other Audio-only performances that aren't music

Improv Troupes/Acts

Random live-action performance things like Riverdance & Cirque Du Soleil that aren't theatre, pro wrestling, improv, or stand-up comedy

Board & Card Games (guess this might go under Tabletop Games, but I admit when I think of Tabletop Games I think of RP systems like d20 and GURPS and such)

Eastern Animation

Visual Novels

edited 16th Aug '11 7:42:04 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Aug 16th 2011 at 7:52:29 PM

Keep in mind that we aren't looking for every conceivable category something could be put in. We're looking for categories to let people know basically what the work they're looking at is.

"Comedy" can over Stand-up like (Jerry Seinfeld), story-oriented (like Bill Cosby), Recorded (like Stan Freberg) and Troupes (like Firesign Threatre); we don't need 4 different comedy namespaces.

Film is film. Is it a movie? It goes in Film. Long film, short film, animated film, live action film. It's a Film. It goes in Film.

Same with Theatre. Opera is Theatre. So is Broadway. So is Off-Broadway and Operetta and Comic Opera and Experimental.

edited 16th Aug '11 7:54:56 PM by Madrugada

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#8: Aug 16th 2011 at 9:01:51 PM

We could lump several of them in Live Performance. I think we could go with

Radio

Audible Literature for things like script readings, story readings, audio books etc.

Pro Wrestling

Toys

Multimedia for works that take part in multiple mediums period, regardless of adaption status.

Live Performance for things that wouldn't fit elsewhere I guess, unless the others cover it.

Visual Novels I guess are their own thing.

I prefer "comedian" over "comedy" because comedy is a genre.

Fight smart, not fair.
LiberatedLiberater 奇跡の魔女 from [DATA EXPUNGED] Since: Jun, 2011
奇跡の魔女
#9: Aug 17th 2011 at 3:19:32 AM

Would Short Story fall under Literature or will they be their own thing?

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Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#10: Aug 17th 2011 at 4:48:49 AM

I'm inclined to leave them under Literature. We don't, to my knowledge, have so many of them that it dominates the section.

Fight smart, not fair.
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#11: Aug 17th 2011 at 5:31:01 AM

I'm cool with lumping some of the more niche mediums together where we can as long as we have clear official descriptions of what should go where.

(FWIW, I admit I was thinking of Improv Everywhere, which doesn't strike me as being strictly a comedic troupe... but it could fall under a general Live Performance namespace anyway.)

And yeah, I think all prose should just go under Literature. IMHO it's poetry that's more questionable whether to lump or not.

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#12: Aug 17th 2011 at 5:35:01 AM

My main issue with lumping comedy into live performance is that we'd have to do something with recordings like video and audio C Ds. I suppose we could treat them as adaptions, but most of the bits remain the same overall so I was going for a space saver solution.

Fight smart, not fair.
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#13: Aug 17th 2011 at 10:21:25 AM

I wonder if we should make a general "Let's Create a Namespace List" thread in Special Efforts or Wiki Talk—complete with rolling updates first post or Sandbox or something—where it might get more eyeballs/opinions. This is the sort of thing there should be more than just four people dithering about.

edited 17th Aug '11 10:22:21 AM by Jeysie

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Aug 17th 2011 at 11:19:57 AM

I'm very wary of doing anything to indicate that we want more namespaces. We don't want lots of namespaces. The namespaces are general categories, not specific ones.

Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#15: Aug 17th 2011 at 11:27:04 AM

The problem is that while we have the major mediums covered, I just don't think we have enough existing namespaces yet to cover every type of work page we have, even with shoehorning or "good enoughs".

This didn't used to be a problem, but if we're going to make a big push to put everything that's not a trope in a namespace, IMHO we really have to write up an official list of good homes for everything that's not the obvious stuff.

Even if that turns out to be "Niche subject officially goes into this existing namespace as a good-enough fit", it's better than everyone operating on guesswork. We already have, for instance, video games split between Game/ and VideoGame/ due to that, and that's one of the less confusing/niche mediums!

edited 17th Aug '11 11:29:59 AM by Jeysie

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#16: Aug 17th 2011 at 11:32:28 AM

We'd also need to have some way to intercept page creates before they go into the database. For example, if you click Edit Page on a new article — or one that doesn't have a type set, the system demands that you provide a type before saving it. If your type is "a work", then it blocks you and demands a namespace. Even better, if you pick a namespace, it should automatically save the article to that namespace, and maybe even plop in a Main redirect if it's not taken. That would be pretty cool, in fact.

To reiterate...

  • When you open the edit page, if the system detects that it's a new article or is untyped, it presents the page type as an additional required field.
  • Choosing "work" as a type pops in a Medium/Namespace combo box. If you put the article in a namespace to begin with, it defaults to that.
  • If you try to submit a "work" in Main, you get an error and your edit is refused.
  • If you set a namespace that's different from the one you're currently editing, it auto-saves the page to the proper namespace.
  • (Optional) If there is no current Main article corresponding to the page you created, the system automatically puts in a redirect.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#18: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:26:33 AM

I like that idea, too.

I wonder if there would either be a way to link to a page explaining what goes where, or even a way to create some kind of simple questionnaire, where it asks you what the work is, and then suggests a correct namespace based on your response.

(Or even just a list of available namespaces, asking you to pick one. No point in having people type in a namespace if we're supposed to have just a set list of them. Would help enforce consistency, too.)

edited 18th Aug '11 11:27:59 AM by Jeysie

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#19: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:30:11 AM

I specifically said that the namespace selection would be a combo box (pull-down list, if you will). You could link to a "Help me find a namespace" article (or even an interactive wizard) to support it.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:31:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#20: Aug 18th 2011 at 11:32:14 AM

Ah, OK. Sorry, I interpreted "combo box" as a text input, not a selection list. Carry on.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:32:31 AM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Oct 23rd 2011 at 2:26:03 PM

The Dresden Files cut requested: 23rd Oct cut date: 23rd Oct

Article was cut. There may be discussion here.

FastEddie: preenting this from being moved into main

Creating red links in 1964 articles.

All I have to say is that 1964 is a pretty enormous number of red links to track down.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#23: Oct 23rd 2011 at 2:33:50 PM

I already redirected it. Someone kept trying to remake the article in Main after it got moved.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#24: Feb 14th 2016 at 3:22:31 PM

Done in several different ways, so locking.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
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