TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Was Stalin as bad as Hitler?

Go To

captainbrass2 from the United Kingdom Since: Mar, 2011
#76: Aug 14th 2011 at 5:28:51 AM

[up]Kill millions of men successfully. Perhaps one reason Stalin isn't demonised in quite the same way as Hitler was is that, as I said earlier, he got away with it.

I am reminded of a Steve Bell newspaper cartoon from The '80s sending up Ronald Reagan's controversial visit to a German military cemetery at Bitburg. "My fellow Americans," Bell has Reagan announce, "today I have come face-to-face with the awesome public relations blunder perpetrated by the Nasties (sic). They lost, and they got found out."

"Well, it's a lifestyle"
vijeno from Vienna, Austria Since: Jan, 2001
#77: Aug 14th 2011 at 7:41:06 AM

(If you're Austrian or Georgian, you're probably trying to forget that one of two of the world's worst mass-murderers actually originated in your country).

Such was our official doctrine for most of the time (Austria was "Hitler's first victim"). I believe this has done no good at all to our country.

The issue I have with the comparison per se: It is regularly used by nazis in my own country to make Hitler out as the "lesser evil" in some weird defensive strategy.

Hmm... question on the side: With Hitler, I have some understanding why the industry and others supported him. With Stalin... I have no freaking clue. Where to start looking?

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#78: Aug 14th 2011 at 7:59:01 AM

Stalin worked behind the scenes and was an expert in manipulating Soviet politics behind the scenes, playing his rivals off against each other. The purges and show-trials consolidated his grip on the USSR.

Simon Sebag Montefiore's Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar is an excellent biography, I recommend reading that if you want to know more about Stalin's rise to the top.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Archereon Ave Imperator from Everywhere. Since: Oct, 2010
Ave Imperator
#79: Aug 14th 2011 at 8:25:43 AM

Of the big three dictators, Mao Zedong was probably the least evil. The millions of deaths he caused were more a result of his own incompetence as an administrator than malicious intent. He was also disturbed by the extent of his personality cult during the Cultural Revolution, which is more that can be said of Stalin or Hitler. Of course, if Mao regretted the Great Leap Forward at all, he didn't show it, and it wasn't like he did anything to stop the spread of his personality cult. Still thoroughly evil, but not quite the Complete Monster that Stalin and Hitler were.

This is a signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#80: Aug 14th 2011 at 8:30:30 AM

Hanlon's Razor can be invoked for the Great Leap Forward, but in the end he never expressed remorse for it, he kept trying the same things that failed in the GLP, and he didn't, as you noted, stop the Cultural Revolution; in fact, he encouraged it. He's definitely a Complete Monster, but just in a more incompetent manner than Stalin and less Evilly Affable than Hitler (before he went insane, anyhow).

I am now known as Flyboy.
Smasher from The 1830's, but without the racists (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: The best thing that ever happened to a bum like me
#81: Aug 14th 2011 at 10:04:45 AM

Chiang Kai Shek was evil too, so China was screwed either way.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#82: Aug 14th 2011 at 10:07:36 AM

[up] Indeed. Poor, poor China...

I am now known as Flyboy.
captainbrass2 from the United Kingdom Since: Mar, 2011
#83: Aug 14th 2011 at 11:41:46 AM

[up][up]Now, now, USAF - you know there are no Real Life examples for Complete Monster...

Actually, I doubt even Mao (if fictional) would qualify for the trope because no-one who set out to liberate the Chinese masses, as he saw it, can be completely lacking in altruism. This is an important point when it comes to Communist dictators - whatever you think of Marxism, it was in its origins inspired by noble ideas (i.e. freedom and equality). Fascism was always about an elite repressing everyone else.

It's the difference between something that became evil, and something that was evil all along. YMMV, of course.

"Well, it's a lifestyle"
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#84: Aug 14th 2011 at 12:18:03 PM

Judging from what you guys are saying, he doesn't sound sociopathic like Stalin, or racist like Hitler.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#85: Aug 14th 2011 at 1:07:25 PM

[up][up] Says the idealist, apparently.

[up] Mao was incompetent. That, in and of itself, doesn't make him evil. The fact that he knew it, and kept on doing what he was doing, is what makes him a monster.

I am now known as Flyboy.
secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#87: Aug 15th 2011 at 2:16:24 PM

Considering the times, he was much nicer then the Persians or any other empire, who simply burned cities willy nilly. Alex was off by the Indian campaign, which was where those cruelties took place.
I just want to say that people shouldn't get their primary impressions on the Persian empire from 300. Also the Greeks weren't exactly shining knights of justice either.

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#88: Aug 19th 2011 at 9:48:07 PM

One point I want to mention: Germany was blamed for WWI and was treated by the rest of Europe poorly. It also had a serious economic problem. Hitler gave the nation new spirit and forced Europe to appease Germany, but then caused wars and essentially abused his nation's opportunity of recovery.

Because of all Germany went through, and because of what Hitler went through (jail, art school rejection, mother's affairs), he was angry. He acted out of anger and it's unfortunate what happened to everyone because of that.

Stalin, on the other hand, wasn't the one that caused the revolution in Russia. He just usurped the consequences of Lenin's revolution. He was basically someone that stepped in during the times of Soviet ascent and took the power for himself rather than actually leading the nation with a defined cause. His motives seem more selfish and swindling to me.

edited 19th Aug '11 9:48:34 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#89: Aug 19th 2011 at 9:58:53 PM

[up]But one started a war and purposefully killed 7+ millions "undesirables".

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#90: Aug 19th 2011 at 10:04:59 PM

Stalin killed more people than Hitler. And Hitler at least cared about some people and had principles, even if his beliefs and actions were utterly abhorrent and a perversion of humanties worst inpulses. Stalin? I believe he was nothing more than a sociopath.
Hitler's principles/beliefs make him more offensive in my eyes than Stalin, not less.

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#91: Aug 19th 2011 at 10:21:19 PM

But one started a war and purposefully killed 7+ millions "undesirables".

Hitler would be described as more reckless because he got into a war against all those European nations and invaded other territories. But it's not like Stalin was an isolationist that upheld other nations the way they were. He usurped the Soviet Union, which expanded territory far beyond Russia and initiated the Warsaw Pact to further the Soviet influence.

edited 19th Aug '11 10:25:19 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#92: Aug 19th 2011 at 10:48:38 PM

[up]The Soviet expansion took place mainly before Stalin took power.

Plus, Soviet expansion was to spread the revolution, not to slaughter millions to make way for settlement.

Jesus Christ I'm defending communism...

edited 19th Aug '11 10:49:59 PM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#93: Aug 19th 2011 at 10:54:21 PM

Wasn't Russia shrunk after they signed a peace treaty with the Germans and then fighting themselves until the mid 20's? There were also Japanese and British troops running around in Siberia and a trainload of Czechs trying to get from west to east and Poles invading. The only thing the Soviets had before WW 2 was the old czar empire minus some parts in the west.

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#94: Aug 20th 2011 at 1:47:20 PM

As far as I know Jewish populations were treated pretty abominably under Stalin as well. Not to mention other minorities.

I think the main difference is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. Hitler wanted you dead. Stalin didn't care either way.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#95: Aug 20th 2011 at 2:07:40 PM

you know that that has nothing to do with sociopathy or psychopathy?

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#97: Aug 20th 2011 at 2:25:07 PM

well by a lack of alternatives to judge on I'm going to call Hitler the worst of the two since soviet marching music was better than nazi marches.

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#98: Aug 21st 2011 at 5:49:34 PM

^ Maybe, but the Nazis had snazzier uniforms. tongue

[/smartass]

All your safe space are belong to Trump
Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#99: Aug 21st 2011 at 5:56:04 PM

@honorious: The treaty of Brest-Litowsk didn't really take effect, so Russia kept a lot of it's teritory because the German Empire ceased to exist.

edited 21st Aug '11 5:57:08 PM by Erock

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
honorius from The Netherlands Since: Jun, 2010
#100: Aug 21st 2011 at 11:33:31 PM

But it wasn't larger than the original czar empire IIRC.

[up][up] Can't argue with that.

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling

Total posts: 141
Top