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Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#951: Jan 19th 2013 at 6:46:08 AM

And I've said this again: how do those actually factor into whether or not Taiwan should unite with China?

Lousy reasons being repeated here: Because China is evil, because Taiwan is democratic, because China isn't good enough, etc etc. This has been cyclic for a long time.

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#952: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:00:14 AM

There is nothing to indicate that the people of Taiwan want to join China. Unless Taiwan joining China is what the people want, they shouldn't join China.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#953: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:06:59 AM

[up][up] BEING EVIL IS NOT A LOUSY FUCKING REASON.

If your committing genocide, human rights abuses, ect. YOU ARE FREAKING EVIL.

@"America is a colonial power" thats bullshit and you know it. those "colonies" are ACTUALLY (unlike Tibet)self governing. Puerto Rico's even in the process of becoming a state.

I'm baaaaaaack
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#954: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:10:15 AM

[up] They are colonies. They're not the best example, but I felt they would be the example that would resonate most with Cassie. Really, the best example of colonies in the modern day are the West Bank and the Gaza Strip under Israel.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#955: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:12:05 AM

[up][up]Your hot headedness in this discussion is so hot, you just touche'd your own contradiction without even realising it.

Then by your logic, I think it would be fine to extend my point so that your very stance of not wanting Taiwan to unite makes you an evil and irredeemable person. How quick and often have you placed the 'evil' tag on China? How about go there for once after the smog settles down?

Alas, I'm making this post for one reason: I'm not here to bash anyone, but I am more than tired and infuriated by such [up][up] hot headedness. Especially concerning a country no more dubious in coming than most Western countries.

[up]I don't have a problem with your point of Taiwan not wanting to join China yet. After all, it's present tense, not a future tense that's persistently kept up by some. But if China already absorbed Xinjiang and Tibet since Qing Dynasty, how does colonization work by definition? It's not foreign nations made to bleed like UK and just-pointed-out, USA with Puerto Rico and such.

edited 19th Jan '13 7:21:03 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#956: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:21:15 AM

Then by your logic, I think it would be fine to extend my point so that your very stance of not wanting Taiwan to unite makes you an evil and irredeemable person.

...Wait, how does that work? I mean, what human rights abuses or genocide is Joe committing by opposing the unification of China and Taiwan?

I don't have a problem with your point of Taiwan not wanting to join China yet. After all, it's present tense, not a future tense that's persistently kept up by some.

If you don't have a problem with the argument, could you refute it, explain why it isn't important, explain why they should unite despite the people not wanting it, or change your position to align yourself with what the argument supports?

But if China already absorbed Xinjiang and Tibet since Qing Dynasty, how does colonization work by definition?

Didn't you just say how the debate about whether or not China is a colonial power doesn't matter to this debate? I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Either it factors into this debate and we can and should talk about it, or it doesn't and we shouldn't be talking about it.

edited 19th Jan '13 7:24:56 AM by deathpigeon

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#957: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:27:07 AM

EDIT: [up]Well, you said it first by claiming it would resonate with me, while in reality, I didn't feel resonated at all. We can agree to stop discussing about colonial stuff though, because it's a different can of worms.

[up]I think Breadloaf said it more than me. It's not in my mood and blood to repeat what others said and I myself said. Unification is a good thing rather than making another country out of diplomatic stalemates for the sake of it. How well you run a land doesn't necessarily merit you (or demerit you) to absorb or seceed one state or another. We all live on Earth. So this issue falls down to preferences and historical causes, the latter of which is in high debate because apparently, the West and East have different educations and sources about these things.

My stance is close to breadloafs for different reasons: I prefer to see China and Taiwan working together, rather than having the latter pander to so called democratic standards and fall prey to the scheme of being USA's puppet state. Japan is currently a USA puppet state out of control, so you can see how irrelevant political systems has in bearing on this issue. Also, despite in the past pages people claim that political directions as of late have no bearing on this issue, I'm putting this out of the way by saying they do. In the world of nuclear politics, it is rather proper to bow to whoever makes the most offerings and threats. It's no lie that USA has been making 'island blockades' to restrict China's naval movement, and Taiwan is the final piece to that plan.

edited 19th Jan '13 7:34:43 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#958: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:34:02 AM

I thought the example of the US over any other would resonate most with you, which is why I used it to respond to your challenge to apply the descriptor to a country other than China. Then you said it didn't matter so I dropped the topic.

And why does any of that excuse ignoring the wishes of the people? China and Taiwan should only unify if the Taiwanese people want them to. I see no evidence for them wanting that, so there is no reason to believe they want to, thus Taiwan and China should not unify.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#959: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:38:46 AM

[up]I think it should've been clear to you already that warfare and mutual bloodshed are not wishes of the Taiwanese people as well, of all things. Not to mention it is no false statement that the island is still on an even split when it comes to native opinion on independence.

I am a believer of one thing though: if you condone the act of USA wanting to exploit the independence consensus for the sake of some deterrent battle plan, it will defy both the Taiwanese wishes and endanger the whole Asia

edited 19th Jan '13 7:40:02 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#960: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:42:46 AM

[up] And a split opinion isn't the same as them wanting to join with the mainland.

The US isn't important to Taiwan's independence. If you think that the US should have less influence over Taiwan, then argue that, and I'll probably side with you, but that's not an excuse to force them to join China.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#961: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:46:13 AM

[up]And I don't think I've said in this thread that Taiwan should join with China immediately. It is the most viable path to take for Taiwan with long term rewards though. I just don't see the need to continue to vilify China by tossing out all the historical things in order to oppose that notion, because doing the same for other Western countries would pretty much make them liable for seccession of their own territories.

I don't know if you're that dense about USA or what, but maybe I will link you to news reports of various naval movements concerning that. USA should not just drop the influence over Taiwan, but frankly with the rest of the world as well. Though apparently it's not gonna do that soon, since Cold War mentality had set in yet again, and China is the next Russia. It is not an excuse. Why? Because USA is the most frequent dealbreaker in US-China relationships.

edited 19th Jan '13 7:49:43 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#962: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:52:24 AM

If I were a Taiwanese citizen, I would oppose the unification because China is a totalitarian dictatorship, and I prefer the most troubled representative democracy to the most enlightened dictatorship. Of course, I'd also be in favor of an overthrow of the Taiwanese government in favor of an anarchic government, like I am with the US.

Yes, the US should drop influence over the entire world, but this topic is about Taiwan, not the entire world.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#963: Jan 19th 2013 at 7:57:08 AM

And I am going to paraphrase you by saying that this thread isn't about USA. It's partly (and importantly) about how USA is playing a deciding role of Taiwan's political decision concerning independance.

It's good you are making your political preferences clear, but remember what I said: it has no bearing on this discussion. If I can see them as different sizes of countries with different population counts, then so can you. But if you choose not to do so then it's going to be hard, because apparently seeing which country has which political system automatically puts you on a bias.

I'd rather avoid that, and have you face the single most important part of independance / union : 3rd party influences. The intent behind USA-Taiwan ties is obvious, explainable and can be proven. There are even off-shore naval movements.

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#964: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:02:18 AM

No, third party influence is not the single most important issue. The only important factor is the will of the people. If the people of Taiwan want it and the people of China want it, then they should unify. If the people of Taiwan want it but the people of China don't want it or the people of China want it but the people of Taiwan don't want it, then they shouldn't unify. (The people of China not wanting it or the people of Taiwan not wanting it isn't the same as the people of Taiwan wanting the two countries to be separate or the people of China wanting the two countries to be separate, I should note.)

Also, I thought my avatar, signature, title, and location made my political preferences completely clear.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#965: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:11:33 AM

Then answer me this: do you think that Taiwan's people even remotely want their island to be turned into some battlefront against China?

Because that is what is happening right now. Over the decade, USA is investing and subsidizing military armaments and firepower to Taiwan, and is still doing so now. I don't recall (from election campaigns on the island thus far) that this is part of the advertisement. In other words, representative democracy NOT being played like it's supposed to. No matter which party is being elected to represent the Taiwanese people, this kind of ugly camaraderie will continue.

So you have two things for present tense: Taiwan keeping the status quo but still playing into USA's cards, or if Taiwan goes Independant (a scenario that is increasingly likely) and becomes the last blockade and first anti-China battlefront. You can't have anything middle. The best way to avert that is to unite and abort those two present tenses. No matter how slow

USA has the means to turn Asia into a nuclear warzone, and it all starts with either Taiwan or the Fishing Isle. SO I refuted your claim saying 3rd party influences don't factor in.

edited 19th Jan '13 8:13:39 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#966: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:14:44 AM

No, so the US should get out of there. Do you think they should be unified against their will?

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#967: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:17:00 AM

I think that spitting the ugly truth to their faces will change their mind and have better judgement on the whole situation. What they will decide afterwards is their business. Right now, it doesn't sit right with me, seeing that they're being played like Muggles.

Not only should USA get out of there. It should get out of there for good. I never recalled that ROC and PRC has a score that should be settled with outside intervention. If they really should duke it out, just do so by themselves for the textbooks.

edited 19th Jan '13 8:18:27 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#968: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:19:11 AM

I think that many, if not most, of them probably know of the influence the US has on them. Telling them the ugly truth is probably not going to change their mind because they probably already know the ugly truth.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#969: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:22:04 AM

[up]Try and verify that to the Greens' supporters. Those are some hardened farmer fanatics who believe that the Greens will give them everything

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#970: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:33:19 AM

I did not say all. I said many, if not most. Those who cannot see it now will probably not believe anyone who tries to tell them otherwise. The US isn't exactly subtle about influencing other countries, and it's probably even more obvious from within those countries. They have all the evidence they need. If they continue to refuse to believe that the US has influence over them, then they will continue to refuse to believe it no matter how much anyone tells them.

Also, from my cursory research into the greens, by which I mean reading this page, the greens got about 1.7% of the vote, and are a part of the Global Greens which would put them opposed to US intervention in Taiwan. Are you not referring to the greens or is there some sort of terminology issue I'm missing?

edited 19th Jan '13 8:33:50 AM by deathpigeon

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#971: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:35:38 AM

*facepalm* I'm talking about 民进党, not them

edited 19th Jan '13 8:35:47 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#972: Jan 19th 2013 at 8:58:42 AM

After further digging, I've come to realize you mean the Pan-Green Coalition, who seem to support an independent Taiwan, as opposed to the Pan-Blue Coalition, who support the PRC joining them, as opposed to them joining the PRC, meaning that mainland China would be more like them than the PRC. I also found that the Pan-Greens are the minority and I found no evidence that they were favorable toward US intervention or that their followers would be ignorant to the US involvement in Taiwan.

Also, as a side note, please don't use terminology like "the greens' supporters" unless you know that we will understand said terminology.

Baff Since: Jul, 2011
#973: Jan 19th 2013 at 9:21:13 AM

nevermind..

I do beleive Taiwan should reincorporate itself to China in a way similar to how Hong Kong or Macau did it.

But I am not Taiwanese so I recognize my opinion does not carry weight, ultimately it should be the Taiwanese people the ones to decide.

What I think will end up happening is that the economic ties between the 2 nations will grow so strong that they will become allies.

Similiar to what happened between the U.S and Canada, or the U.S and Britain.

It only takes a Chinese or a Taiwanese "Nixon" to fix this in a way.

edited 19th Jan '13 9:27:38 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#974: Jan 19th 2013 at 4:20:14 PM

So long as neither side gets a Stalin. tongue

I'm baaaaaaack
blueflame724 Since: May, 2010
#975: Jan 19th 2013 at 6:56:05 PM

[up][up]

You say reincorporate itself like Hong Kong and Macau, and then compare it to the US and Canada. That's still two fairly different relationships.

@Cassie Is unification literally the only way countries can help each other? And this implication that the US is the only reason that Taiwan has this idea of independence...then why has Taiwan not declared independence? And I agree with Death Pigeon; it's fine to address your grievances with the US but acting like unification will solve their problems doesn't really get us anywhere.

@Deathpigeon Don't look at political parties too much; it's not a given that a supporter of independence has to be Green, though status quo is more likely in voting for blue.

edited 19th Jan '13 7:04:18 PM by blueflame724

I treat all living things equally. That is to say, I eat all living things

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