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breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#226: Apr 6th 2012 at 10:37:26 PM

Okay i stick with non separatist argument because I'm Canadian. American hypothetical? You fought a civil war that killed half a million people. Canada imposed martial law and brought the full force of the military on Quebec. There's nothing hypothetical or strange about a country that is dealing with a separatist movement, albeit a more successful one. It's not like the Quebec situation in Canada last a mere few years, it's been a problem for well over a century.

edited 6th Apr '12 10:37:52 PM by breadloaf

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#227: Apr 6th 2012 at 11:07:25 PM

According to Wikipedia, Quebec has on a couple occasions held referendums on whether they should form a seperate nation, and the seperatist position has been defeated both times (albeit narrowly). Had the referendum gone the other way and a (super-)majority of Quebecans called for sovereignity, then I'd say the Canadian government would have an ethical obligation to let them go.

blueflame724 Since: May, 2010
#228: Apr 7th 2012 at 7:04:24 AM

Yes, you can criticize, but it's a matter of values changing. We can't change the past, so blaming the present doesn't really solve anything. It's what we can learn from history.

And the argument that "territories have been apart of China for a long time so they should be part of China" doesn't necessarily make sense. China's territory has constantly fluctuated. What exactly are they "reconstructing"?

I treat all living things equally. That is to say, I eat all living things
Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#229: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:20:53 AM

Lands can be a part of China but as proven again and again, not all provinces run on the same set of laws. Only 4 places in China so far had been kindly given the opportunity to 'self govern' : Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet. None of these places, especially Taiwan, are affected by most of Central Government's decisions. But even so, the fact that they're under the attention and jurisdiction of Central Government is more than enough a proven fact that there's no need to seperate when there's no justification to

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#230: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:25:21 AM

[up] Taiwan wasnt given that. They're effectively independent, China cant make them do anything.

I'm baaaaaaack
Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#231: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:27:39 AM

[up]All the Chinese in the world can try and make them not go independant. It's 'our' ingrained duty of some sorts : to at least see to it that unless China is an agressor, let none of its lands get taken by underhanded means

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#232: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:33:24 AM

You can try all you want, as of right now China's laws don't matter at all in Taiwan.

I'm baaaaaaack
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#233: Apr 7th 2012 at 2:13:31 PM

unless China is an agressor, let none of its lands get taken by underhanded means

So does that mean you support disbanding the PRC and putting the mainland back under the Republic of China's control?

edited 7th Apr '12 2:22:37 PM by RavenWilder

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#234: Apr 7th 2012 at 2:20:45 PM

[up] If they undid the results of "underhanded means", they would. Stalin handed Mao half the country from the Japanese after ww2. Before that the Nationalist had more to worry about from the other warlords in china.

I'm baaaaaaack
Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#235: Apr 7th 2012 at 7:59:35 PM

[up][up]What is this I don't even.... NO. The current governing system, the CPPCC and DPC, which form the Central Government, is still handling the whole China much better than before. It's not broken so there's no need for dismantling. Not yet

It is still plain wrong to assume everyone has Mao's blood in them, and every Chinese leader is a tyrant in waiting. That's the same as if I am accusing every American president there is is an alien-puppeteered warmonger like Bush duo, though that is not the case at the moment. It is also wrong to apply a baseless subtext such as 'China tries to tie a leash around Taiwan to curb Western influence' , while in reality all China is really promoting at the moment is more mutual trade and student flow, and providing more mutually accessible job opportunities

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#236: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:09:40 PM

Oh, Cassie. Nobody was suggesting that. He was pointing out the flaws in your arguments by taking them to their logical conclusion. Your reaction proves his point.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#237: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:17:22 PM

But so far everyone tries to find reasons for Taiwan to be independant, and that is sickening to me. It reeks of Western conformism I so don't want to get involved in

But with that spoken, I hold nothing against anyone for long. It's been civil so far really. And do pardon for my level of conversational intelligence, but I'm only good in English compared to my surroundings. I have limited choice of words and all

edited 7th Apr '12 8:21:07 PM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#238: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:25:06 PM

Well, that's not really the gist that I got around here though. More like "current status quo is the best as actually declaring independence will seriously destabilize the region and start a war which benefits no one". It's just that your reasons seem to reek too much of nationalist sentiments.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:26:25 PM by IraTheSquire

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#239: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:29:05 PM

Don't worry about it. Thanks for being civil in return.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#240: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:42:41 PM

Well his views are nationalist, yes, but not actually out of some extremist philosophy.

It's what I see as a double standard in the Western world and while I get that hypocrisy isn't anything new, it's jarring to me.

For instance, when the Tibetan race riots broke out recently in China, what was the reaction from the West? Overthrow the government! Rawr! By and large, that was the sentiment (or you didn't care). But most Chinese around the world (I'm specifically saying most rather than all) would not think that would be the proper solution.

We, in the West, are applying a solution we would NEVER suggest for a western country. Try as we might to pretend that somehow it is different, it simply reeks of an asymmetrical view point.

Basically, when the UK and French race riots broke out, most Westerners felt that our police forces were too LIGHT handed over the situation. Yet, they employed exactly the same tactics that the Chinese did. Just look up any number of Associate Press articles written of both the Urumqi riots and the Tibetan riots, plus eye witness accounts by Swedes and Canadians in the area. They reported seeing police use riot gear, tear gas and other non-lethal means to subdue what was largely an incredibly violent group of people.

In Tibet, the rioters burned down the muslim communities, accusing them of polluting their culture. In Urumqi, angry rioters killed Han Chinese over a fabricated story of rape and lack of justice.

The solution to those problems is to address the unequal access to economic opportunities by those groups.

So it's the same when I look at Taiwan. The best long-term solution is to unify under a better government and the government in question will be from Beijing. Why? Because it would be ridiculous to expect that the people who lost the civil war would be in power. It's not like unified USA got put under a Confederate government.

So unless we think the solution to race riots in western countries is to overthrow the government, or that separatist movements should be afforded the rights of their land, then I think it ridiculous to suggest it of others. Plus, if you want to talk about referendum in Quebec, Taiwanese have repeated voted for pro-unification parties (as the pro-independence party soundly lost). So should they unify? The issue is merely logistics. I think the question of independence is simply silly.

And of the constant talk of China "occupying" Tibet... really? It's such a dull argument. The communists rolled in and it was bloodless. When the rebellion happened, thousands died. Not millions. Not entire cities razed to the ground. Just the clergy who took up arms after being dumped from power. They took out a theocracy at the time, let's not pretend it was anything else. Tibet never was a democracy and to pretend it ever was is just not factual. Yeah China can improve their handling of the situation, but that's just a general statement, not one that promotes independence.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:45:59 PM by breadloaf

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#241: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:45:53 PM

"The best long-term solution is to unify under a better government and the government in question will be from Beijing. Why? Because it would be ridiculous to expect that the people who lost the civil war would be in power."

What? Losing a particular war doesn't determine which is better. Taiwan is staying separate from China right now because it sees China as problematic.

Now using Trivialis handle.
Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#242: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:46:13 PM

[up][up]I can't word it any better, thank you. But not that I'm using it as a front.

My point is that being independant for Taiwan at the current stage of time is like a Balkan rehash. But [up] on the other hand, just.... look at what Taiwan has done for itself. Again, senate brawls and massive money vacumms by now-convicted Chen

edited 7th Apr '12 8:47:16 PM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#243: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:46:55 PM

@ abstract

It doesn't matter. As far as I am concerned, the best practical solution is to improve the government in Beijing to a higher standard to rule over China and retake Taiwan.

I'm saying it's a total pipedream to suggest anything else.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:48:01 PM by breadloaf

IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#244: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:49:29 PM

[up][up][up][up]Well, I don't think that anyone are deliberately doing that, and people who did backed off once it is pointed out that the western countries do the same thing.

Plus, if you want to talk about referendum in Quebec, Taiwanese have repeated voted for pro-unification parties (as the pro-independence party soundly lost). So should they unify? The issue is merely logistics. I think the question of independence is simply silly.

Well, I wouldn't even go that far. Chen only tried to infuriate China by being extremely pro-independent to maintain support. I'm not quite sure how far his party (Pan-Greens from memory) believes in his rhetoric.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:50:36 PM by IraTheSquire

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#245: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:50:26 PM

[up]x3 That happens in other well-known countries too. Those that are ranked highly in democracy, in fact.

That doesn't mean it's better for the people to avoid democratic governing. More oppressive governments can have less civil violence through more control.

[up][up]And for China to be considered "safe", it will have to ditch its harmful nationalism, much like Taiwan did.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:54:59 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#246: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:54:51 PM

Quick question, breadloaf. Are you using "western" as a shorthand for "democratic" that's less damaging to your position? Because that seems like an issue you didn't really address, did you?

And Taiwan, incidentally, has voted for independence. That's why they aren't part of the PRC right now.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#247: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:55:26 PM

I really don't think China's government is at all nationalist, given its rhetoric and interaction in the UN. I mean, they act with pragmatism.

I'm not entirely convinced how Taiwan has dumped nationalism at all. That seems to be the core of all their political rhetoric in fact and they still dump a vast majority of their budget into the military (and to take a potshot at USA, they also adopted universal healthcare despite that!). Really, I think that we arbitrarily assign Taiwan a greater democracy "feel" to it, above that than say Macao and Hong Kong, which I think is total dogcrap.

Hong Kong people have long enjoyed say in local politics, the problem was capitalism really crippled the power of the poor. Taiwan on the other hand ended their military dictatorship in order to justify their leadership in the eyes of a new modern world by simply spewing a bunch of nationalist propaganda anyway, getting voted in but the only people on the ballot box are the original aristocrats in control anyway. The actual real difference on the ground was nothing. Maybe it'll improve in the future, but the same can be said of mainland China.

@ Ultrayellow

What? It's my shorthand for North America/Europe.

And whatever, the Canadian elections was found out to be entirely rigged anyway. Democracy my ass.

edited 7th Apr '12 8:57:02 PM by breadloaf

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#248: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:57:19 PM

The US also has a lot of military spending. Of course Taiwan is going to devote to military; it needs to defend itself from threats.

Again, just like from pages back. You're bashing Taiwan while not seeing that such problems can happen in other imperfect but functional countries too.

[up]Edit: Now you're just being pessimistic for no reason. What is your idea of democracy? What is a proper government?

edited 7th Apr '12 8:58:33 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#249: Apr 7th 2012 at 8:59:16 PM

Hong Kong people have long enjoyed say in local politics, the problem was capitalism really crippled the power of the poor.

Not quite so. Before the hand-over at least, political apathy is very much a big part of the culture in Hong Kong and various articles have written about it back then.

edited 7th Apr '12 9:02:03 PM by IraTheSquire

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#250: Apr 7th 2012 at 9:01:14 PM

My idea of a democracy is where voting matters, the candidate choice is wide and the policies are well drafted and serve the interest of the public both in the short and long term. Just being able to vote isn't sufficient to me.

But that's outside the scope of this topic.

My point wasn't so much that I like bashing countries randomly (okay fine I do) but that the expectation that somehow people will magically fare better in Taiwan under long-term de facto independence, is not, in my mind a reasonable expectation.

The reason Taiwan spends so much on the military is solely due to their de facto independence and it's a lot of wasted money. In the future, with real independence, that will lead to war. That's not something I want to see given the entrenched interests in the area. A situation of hostility that grows will be the number one impedance for the growth of democracy in the area.


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