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Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#1: Aug 10th 2011 at 3:21:32 AM

So, the last thread got baleeted like, a year and a half ago or something, and there seems to have been enough of an influx of musician tropers recently that I feel a remake is warranted.

Also, I just like to discuss/explain/teach music theory.

So, post with questions, and I will answer as in depth as you like, to the best of my ability. I'll also post little mini-lessons about things I think are cool every now and then. And eventually, I'll have a beginner's guide to music theory in this very post. That's a little ways down the line, though.

Just a warning: I am a jazz musician, so my explanations will be tinted accordingly, to a certain degree.

General Guidelines:

  • When you want the function of something explained, it really helps to have either sheet music or a recording ready.

  • If I don't make sense, tell me and I'll try to fix that.

  • If I'm not around, and you feel knowledgeable enough to answer someone's question, feel free.

Note to mods that see this: It may be a good idea to sticky this thread...


Links to useful explanations

edited 17th Sep '11 3:57:05 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#2: Aug 10th 2011 at 3:28:49 AM

Talk about cadences.

I know that the plagal one (IV-I) is the Amen one, but that's pretty much it.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
AsTheAnointed Since: Jan, 2010
#3: Aug 10th 2011 at 3:57:04 AM

I want to know more unconventional, out-there scales. I want to start branching my compositions into more generally strange places. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated; one can only write so many wholetone lines in 7/4 before the feeling that one's ideas are 'progressive' disappears.

Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#4: Aug 10th 2011 at 4:18:35 AM

For the purposes of this mini lesson, I will be working from the Major scale. In all cases, chords belonging to the minor scale*

can be used, as long as the V chord is still major. Roman Numeral analysis, and chord types are something I should do a mini-lesson on later, if someone would remind me >.>

Alright.

So, first things first: A cadence is a device employed to create a sense of resolution. There are two families of cadences: Harmonic cadences, and rhythmic cadences.

Harmonic cadences are progressions of two chords that conclude a phrase, section, or piece of music.

There are 4 main types of cadences: Authentic, Half, Plagal, and Deceptive.

Authentic Cadences

The Authentic Cadence is considered to have the most resolute sound, and is always composed of a V chord resolving to a I chord. If you're not familiar with Roman Numeral analysis, that's a chord built off of the 5th of the scale, moving to a chord built off of the root of the scale. So, in C Major, it would be G major resolving down to C major.

There are two kinds of Authentic Cadences: The Perfect Authentic Cadence, and the Imperfect Authentic Cadence.

Perfect Authentic:

  • Considered to have the absolute strongest resolution of all the cadences.
  • Both the V and the I chord have the root of the chord in the base (this is called being in root position).
  • The I chord also has the root in the highest sounding voice.
  • The V chord is always major, even in a minor key. I can explain why in more detail if desired.

No exceptions.

Imperfect Authentic:

  • While still having a strong sound, IACs are considered to not be as strong as PACs
  • V to I, but the highest voice does not land on the root of the I chord.
  • V to I, but one of, if not both, of the chords are "inverted", meaning that the note in the bass is not the root of the chord.
  • The V chord is replaced with a viio chord, or a Sub V chord* , but the cadence still ends on I.

Note that a V7 chord can be substituted for the V chord, without changing the rules. A V7 to I in with both chords in root position, and with the highest voice landing on the tonic is still a PAC.

Half Cadences

A Half Cadence consists of any chord leading to a V chord. This is considered to have a weak sound, primarily due to the V chord containing the leading tone of the scale. exposition

While this type of cadence has a very unresolved and open sound, it is not that uncommon to hear it being the last cadence in a piece of music.

Plagal Cadences

Plagal Cadences are straightforward, just a IV chord leading to a I chord. So, F Major to C Major in the key of C major. This is still considered to be a stronger sound than a half cadence, though it has been argued that you cannot really imply tonality with a IV-I. I'd really rather not get into that discussion .___. This cadence is also known as the Amen Cadence, due to the "Amen" in hymns generally being set to a Plagal Cadence.

Deceptive cadences

A Deceptive Cadence consists of a V chord moving to any chord that isn't a I. Most commonly, it's a V chord leading to a vi chord, or a G major leading to an A minor in the key of C major. It gets its name from the previously mentioned "open" sound of the V chord being followed by a chord other than the expected I chord.


I was going to write more about how cadences apply to phrase, period, and section construction, but then I realized that I have a hard time explaining these concepts. I will ultimately do another mini lesson on this eventually. Also, I'll be adding examples of each cadence to this guide, too, in time. Probably sometime when it isn't 4 in the morning.

edited 10th Aug '11 4:19:19 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#5: Aug 10th 2011 at 4:39:02 AM

Annointed: Oh, man, scales. I love scales evil grin

So, if you're using whole-tone, it sounds like you want something that's rather dissonant, as opposed to something consonant.

First, let's go with what I call the augmented scale, though it really isn't quite a scale...

It's constructed half-step, augmented second, half-step, half-step, augmented second, half-step, half-step, etc.

If you start on C, it should go C, Db, E, F, Gb, A, Bb, Cb, D, Eb, Fb, G, Ab, Bbb, C. It uses every note of the chromatic scale, but it's how you group the notes that's important.

Next up is the diminished-whole tone scale, also known as 7th mode Melodic Minor. The Greek name, or whatever is evading me at the moment. It's constructed half-step, whole-step, half-step, whole-step, whole-step, whole-step, whole-step. So C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb, C. It's pretty common in jazz, used in place of the Mixolydian a lot.

And finally, the Enigmatic scale, which was designed to be a pain in the ass to harmonize. Constructed as follows: Half-step, augmented second, whole-step, whole-step, whole-step, half-step, half-step. I think I got that right. Starting on C, it should go C, Db, E, F#, G#, A#, B, C.

If you want consonant scales, I can do those, too.

For progressive lines, you can also use what's called outside playing. The most common way to do this is by taking an idea, and moving it up a half-step, before resolving to a note in the original key. IIRC, Misha does this in Buttersnips. There's a lot of different ways to do outside playing, but this is the easiest to start with.

Oh, one more thing that may help: octave displacement. It's almost Exactly What It Says on the Tin. You take a musical line, and play with which octave the notes are in. While this video uses it more as a technical exercise than a compositional technique, it demonstrates the idea quite well.

edited 10th Aug '11 5:16:45 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#6: Aug 10th 2011 at 4:46:26 AM

I prefer sticking to Major and Minor scales for now - though granted they're so bog standard for rock guitar.

Why does the 12-Bar Blues sound appealing?

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#7: Aug 10th 2011 at 4:50:51 AM

That's actually something I'm not sure I can answer. If I had to guess, I would say it's because of the repetition. It really lets an idea cement itself. The relaxed way it resolves, V to IV to I probably has something to do with it as well. It's a very "easy" feel...

But yeah, that question is more than a little beyond me, sorry.

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
TankerMan Since: Jul, 2011
#8: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:00:27 AM

What the f¿¤⁂※◊ is an altered chord??

Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#9: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:02:12 AM

I personally think it's a dissection of timed satisfaction - the I sets the tone, as it does, then the IV teases before going to the I, and then we get the V in its glory - but only as a peek! - before we resolve to IV and back to square I, if the pun may be forgiven.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#10: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:08:44 AM

Alright, altered chords. Put simply, an altered chord is a dominant chord that has one or more of its tones altered. The third and the seventh of the chord never get altered.

Now to break it down a bit more.

Say you start with a C7 chord, which is composed of C, E, G, and B. If you raise the 5th, G, a half step, you now get a C7#5 chord, which is an altered chord. You can also add more tones to the chord. If you take a C9 chord, C, E, G, B, and D, then raise the D to D#, you now have a C7#9 chord, which is also an altered chord.

The idea behind this, to my understanding, is that since the dominant chord is generally the V chord, it wants to resolve. So, by making the chord more dissonant, the resolution is that much sweeter. This also ties into why you never alter the third and the seventh. The third of the dominant chord is generally the leading tone, which wants to resolve up to the tonic, and the 7th wants to resolve down to the third of the tonic chord. The 7th and the 3rd of the dominant also create a tritone, which creates the characteristic sound of the dominant chord. By altering the 7th, you'd end up getting rid of that key dissonance.

edited 10th Aug '11 5:17:48 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#11: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:10:41 AM

So that's why the Hendrix chord sounds so awesome.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#12: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:15:02 AM

Kink: Yeah, it's my theory that the #9 of a Hendrix chord acts as a kind of leading tone, seeing as the #9 is just a half step below the 5th of the tonic chord. So you get that extra bit of resolution satisfaction.

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#13: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:18:27 AM

And with some distortion added it gets a certain crunch.

Now, talk about modes.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#14: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:19:49 AM

What about modes, exactly? It's kind of a very deep pool of material.

Also, this is one of those subjects that I approach as a jazz player, be warned.

This will also probably wait until tomorrow, as it's past 5 in the morning for me >.>

edited 10th Aug '11 5:20:03 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
MasterInferno It's Like Arguing on the Internet from Tomb of Malevolence Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
It's Like Arguing on the Internet
#15: Aug 10th 2011 at 5:49:33 AM

I got one:

Double sharps and double flats. Is there any real reason to use them in the standard major and minor scales, instead of the notes they're enharmonic with (e.g. Cx instead of D, or Dbb instead of C)? I ask about those scales specifically since double sharps/flats seem to make a bit more sense in scales with less notes (pentatonic and hexatonic), which may not include those enharmonic notes.

edited 10th Aug '11 5:54:22 AM by MasterInferno

Somehow you know that the time is right.
arks Boiled and Mashed Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Boiled and Mashed
#16: Aug 10th 2011 at 6:48:49 AM

I can answer that, since this is more from the classical side than the jazz side. This has to so with the function of the note. While from a practical standpoint, a C# and Db are the same thing, from a theory standpoint, they serve two very different functions. Using C major as an example, C# is going to lead to the second scale degree, for example in a V/ii chord, while Db will lead to the first scale degree, for example, a Neopolitan chord. If music is written with this in mind, a musician can use the information given to understand the function that his note plays and play the music more intelligently.

When writing music you will see a need to write double sharps more often than double flats, since raised scale degrees are more common than lowered scale degrees. For example, let's say you were to write a piece in c# minor. You want to include a V/V chord. You would have to use an Fx. If you were to use a G instead of Fx, the leading tone line would go G - G#, which makes no sense in c# minor, and doesn't give the musician the extra information about the function of the note. (check out the music to Beethoven's Piano sonata 14 movement one. It has doubled sharps all over the place. Makes it much easier to analyze.)

From a performer's standpoint, some are perfectly comfortable with doubled sharps and flats, others would prefer the enharmonic spelling. When writing music, you want to go for clarity over anything else. Sometimes even though a doubled sharp makes harmonic sense, it confuses the performer. In those cases it might be better to just use the enharmonic spelling. (This will happen more often with single line instruments in an ensemble, like wind instruments.)

Video Game Census. Please contribute.
AsTheAnointed Since: Jan, 2010
#17: Aug 10th 2011 at 9:42:44 AM

Okey dokey, let's see what we've got here. You are indeed correct in that I'm looking for stuff on the dissonant side of things (I know a lot more consonant scales than I do dissonant ones, and when I'm writing consonant music I tend to be pretty satisfied with traditional diatonic concepts most of the time).

Of the stuff you listed, the augmented 'scale' is something I'm familiar with, though I think I learned a somewhat half-baked version of it previously (or just learnt it wrong). Not too easy to get to grips with, but there's definitely some shapes and intervals I can work with there. I'm also relatively familiar with outside playing (or at least, the kind that's mentioned there); I definitely need to implement it more, though, there's all kinds of moods that you can achieve with those sorts of shifts.

Diminished wholetone is a scale that I think was mentioned when I was discussing 'the jazziest scale' with a music teacher. Had a play around with it just now, and it is awesome. Within minutes of starting to noodle, I had repeating 5/8 and 7/8 figures (enhanced with octave displacement, which is a great tip and entirely new to me), a Petrucci-esque groove riff and this delightfully bizarre chord progression emerging out of nowhere as fully-formed ideas. Definitely a winner, so thanks a lot for that!

The enigmatic scale sounds cool enough, although as with the augmented I don't think I've quite gotten to grips with it yet. It's definitely got one of the most eclectic melodic structures of any scale I've played, at least to my ears; it has the first three notes that I always associate with the Phrygian dominant, passes into wholetone territory and then ends with what I've always considered quite a bluesy trio of notes - the two half-steps leading up to the octave.

And as I've stated already, octave displacement is something I'd never thought about before, but in hindsight has probably shown up in a lot of stuff I've listened to (a bunch of Ron Jarzombek riffs and this one Human Abstract tapping sequence come to mind), and has possibly even shown up in an idea or two of my own by accident. From that video, it also sounds like one could implement it in a more consonant setting and actually come up with something very pleasant as well. Another winner.

So yeah, diminished wholetone without doubt is proving to be endlessly fun and fruitful to work with, as are the two techniques you've detailed; I still need to become more comfortable with the augmented and enigmatic scales, but it's a cool bunch of stuff altogether. Much appreciated.

BoundByTheMoon Kvltvre Vvltvre from The Spanish Sahara Since: Jun, 2010
Kvltvre Vvltvre
#18: Aug 10th 2011 at 11:08:04 AM

Ooh, I want in on this! What sorts of pages do you need?

There are snakes in the grass, so we'd better go hunting!
TankerMan Since: Jul, 2011
#19: Aug 10th 2011 at 6:54:20 PM

If you want to do the "smart guy" thing with scales and patterns and whatnot, look at the N. Slonimsky thesaurus. If that's your thing, you'll be in that book forever

JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#20: Aug 10th 2011 at 10:37:25 PM

Though Arks gave an excellent explanation as to the classical side of things, I would like to provide an addendum to the matter of doubled accidentals.

In modern tuning practice - particularly when we speak of the piano - the twelve notes of the octave are equally spaced at a given ratio of lower and higher freqencies *

adding up, when stacked twelve together, to a perfect 1:2 octave.

Pre-Beethoven...

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
arks Boiled and Mashed Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Boiled and Mashed
#21: Aug 11th 2011 at 1:45:15 AM

To add to that, even in modern music, only the instruments that are forced to by their method of playing (namely keyboard instruments) actually use an equally tempered chromatic scale. Most instruments will fudge off of equal temperament to get a just temperamental sound in the chord that is being played at the moment.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.
Solstace Hexachordal Combinatorial from the Second Viennese School Since: Dec, 1969
Hexachordal Combinatorial
#22: Aug 11th 2011 at 3:50:16 AM

Alright, brief overview of modes, I'll give it a shot. Note that I'm not feeling as verbose as I was last night, so the explanation won't be as in depth. After posting, I see that this is far from "brief", and is, in fact, verbose.

Disclaimer: From what I understand, my take on modes is not quite in line with classical theory. This does not mean that what I say won't help you understand them, just that it isn't orthodox.after the fact

So, a common mistake people make is to confuse modes for scales. Modes belong to a scale, and are ways of organizing the notes of that scale to get a different sound. We achieve this by starting the scale on a note other than the usual tonic. I call this "hearing the scale in a different context".

So, using the C Major scale again, if we start on D, and play the scale up to D, you'll notice that it doesn't sound like a C Major scale. This is because you have emphasized different notes of the scale. You're hearing the notes of the C major scale, and how they sound in context to D.

Unlike the C Major scale, the mode that starts on D, called the Dorian mode, has a minor 3rd, and a minor 7th. So already, we lose the "major" sound of the scale, and lack a leading tone. While the D natural minor scale also has a minor 3rd and 7th, the D Dorian mode has a major 6th, so the two are not identical.

A quick rundown of the names of the modes for major scales:

  • Ionian (this is the original major scale)
  • Dorian (start on the second)
  • Phrygian (start on the third)
  • Lydian (start on the fourth)
  • Mixolydian (start on the fifth)
  • Aeolian (this mode is also the natural minor scale, start on the sixth)
  • Locrian (start on the seventh)

Each of the modes have different tonal qualities, due to context of the starting note. I'm feeling lazy tonight, so I won't be making a table of the differences, and will instead link to an article that has already made a table.*

So, while all of this is cool to know, it'd probably be nice to learn how to apply the modes. There are a many ways of doing this, and it really depends on what type of music you play/write.

The jazz method: Jazz musicians use modes to "outline" the chord changes in a song. For a quick example, take a ii-V-I change, probably the most common chord progression in jazz. In the key of C, this would be Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7. To apply the modes, we'd run the Dorian mode of the Dmin7, the Mixolydian mode over the G7, and just the plain C Major scale over the Cmaj7. Simple, right?

The way this generally works is as follows: The musician will play a series of lines that emphasize the different qualities of that mode. So, for the Dmin7, he'd try to emphasize the F, the C, and possibly the major sixth, the B. Emphasis is created by placing the notes on downbeats, generally. Rinse and repeat for the other two chords, using the respective modes.

Alternatively, the jazz musician may be presented with what's called a "one-chord vamp". This is basically a groove that uses only a single chord that the musician must solo over for an extended period of time. Let's switch it up a bit, and say the chord is Bmin. Sure, you could blow a B minor scale over the whole thing, but that gets boring rather fast. You could blow a few bars in B minor (remember this is the same as B Aeolian), and then change to another minor mode that's harmonically close to B Aeolian. By "harmonically close", I mean, it doesn't require you to change many notes. By changing the G in B Aeolian to a G#, you get the B Dorian mode. You could also have changed the C# to a C natural to move into the Phrygian mode. And that's just with the modes of the Major scale. You can do more if you take into account the modes of the Harmonic and Melodic minor scales, too.

Now, since not everyone is a jazz musician, perhaps you want to write a song that's in a mode. How would you go about writing a chord progression in, say, the Lydian mode? You'd want to use chords that really highlight the unique qualities of the mode. The Lydian mode is unique in that chords built off of both the first and the second tones of the mode are major chords. The chord built off of the second also highlights the raised 4th of the mode, which is another one of Lydian's defining traits. So, a I-II would be a natural progression of things. That may be a little too short for most people, so you can expand it by adding the minor chord that's built off of Lydian's leading tone. Something like I-II-I-vii is definitively Lydian, and using C Lydian, would be Cmaj - Dmaj - Cmaj - Bmin.

Personally, I still find that a little too bland. I'd use chords that /really/ go over the top with highlighting the characteristics. I'd make the Cmaj chord into a Cmaj7#11, probably keep the Dmaj as a normal Dmaj, and turn the Bmin into a Bmin7.

And now I've spent like, and hour on this at least, and it's almost 4 in the morning again >.> I've probably left stuff out, but I really can't think right now. If you still have questions, ask, and I'll try to answer them if other people haven't already by the time I wake up >.> This should give an insight into what modes are, and how to use them. I probably didn't go as in depth into building them as I could have, but whatever, this is a beginner's guide thing.

Anyways, I will say right now that I cannot answer questions regarding the history of modes, or about the Church modes. Most of my modal knowledge was gained through private lessons and by trial and error.

Feel free to correct/expand upon what I've said if you so desire.

edited 11th Aug '11 3:53:07 AM by Solstace

Ecstasy is Sustained Intensity
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#23: Aug 11th 2011 at 4:21:38 AM

Confirms what I've learned through reading.

The Lydian mode sounds very interesting, personally.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#24: Aug 11th 2011 at 4:32:43 AM

I like modes. Even if I never used them. Or was actually taught them.

I did however write about a sword named Aeolian. It was part of a set of seven. tongue

You know any song focused on a mode or modes Sols?

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
TankerMan Since: Jul, 2011
#25: Aug 11th 2011 at 8:15:31 AM

one two three four one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEC8nqT6Rrk

edited 11th Aug '11 8:16:17 AM by TankerMan


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