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Venezuela and the Chavez Legacy

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Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#4177: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:29:39 PM

I'm not an expert on Brazilian politics, but Aszur seems to be saying that his rise was fueled by American missionaries who manage to tailor make a political base for a Bolsanaro style Presidency.

Edit: I have been [nja]'d.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jun 22nd 2020 at 3:31:00 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4178: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:30:45 PM

From everything Brazilian posters have posted about Bolsonaro's win, that was not the main factor.

They certainly weren't primarily blaming the USA for it at any rate.

Edited by M84 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 3:31:21 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#4179: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:31:56 PM

I am not suggesting that. I am saying The CIA has already admitted to having done this.

It is deliberate and obvious.

I work for one of them.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4180: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:34:50 PM

At the end of the day, Bolsonaro's win had a lot more to do with Brazil's domestic issues. The USA's influence was not the deciding factor.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#4181: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:40:11 PM

Domestic issues...which the U.S has inflamed deliberately for decades.

There are more ways to influence other nations that don't involve outright wars and genocide. You can plant seeds there, and nurture them into choking vines.

You can set up your companies, seek protection from them, give them money so they buy their own politicians akin to their interests. Especially if you are the number one buyer of their exports.

Sell them ideology that seeks profit over wellbeing, demonizing everything else at the expense of those in the most.

Joel Osteen style scammers are plentiful, well known, and a deliberate political strategy.

Edited by Aszur on Jun 23rd 2020 at 1:42:23 AM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4182: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:41:53 PM

At some point you have to stop pointing at the USA and blaming them for everything. Brazil and other nations have their own agency and their own problems.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#4183: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:43:39 PM

I think it is fair to say that Brazil had enough hostile far-right wingers by itself that the USA wasn't the only cause of the Bolsanaro regime, just the same that it is true that USA influence in the area played a contributing factor.

A phrase a teacher once told me that I will remember for a long time, is that "History is Over-Determined". After the fact, trying to retroactively find a cause, there are dozens of threads one could follow and determine as the cause, but in reality there are many which all merged together. See the defeat of Hillary Clinton. In history, both and then some can be causes without being the only cause.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4184: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:52:28 PM

[up]

I would have the same stance. Certainly the influence of US evangelicals in Latin America is definitely one reason (Ortega hosted one of Trump's evangelicals, showing how bad the FSLN have fallen), but not the sole cause.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4185: Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:55:40 PM

Aszur is right that the left will have to content with chavez shadow for a long time.

And you know what? that is fine because it deserved it.

Because let be honest here, the left on latin americant aren just a bunch of progresist,feinist and some rich politician trying to enact politic for the public most of the time, it to tie to old tankies ideas of army(chavez was a military guy in a continent full of military juntas) obsession with power and love relationship with violence that many times run with the left(even if they deny over and over), is not surprise chavez in the end become a military caudillo.

Also an this is another issue, anti US and anti imperalist show itself to be as good as the old neoliberal "Let bring democracy to afghanistan", most of the time it reveal himself to be apologist for dictatorship or even ilberal because is US, I have seen people tell me that china and russia neo colonization are good because they give more agency to their colony.....

Just like donald trump is US problem coming into one men, so was chavez in general, the left join the whole caudillo system and open the door to chavez.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#4186: Jun 22nd 2020 at 1:00:31 PM

Considering I've commenced this argument by pointing out Chavez was a narcisistic imbecile with nothing but a desire for power, I think it is fair to say that I've not come close to exonerating guilt from latin american leaders and nations as faultless.

But I find it is incredibly useless at best, maliciously misleading at worst, to ignore the deliberate, historical and concurrent, and very relevant to this day efforts of far better funded nations to destabilize Latin America.

This is far from a "Latin america great if only we were not being opressed by big mean U.S!" which is a cartoonish exageration bordering on the offensive. Merely that if we want to understand this mire, it'd behoove us to understand how we got there in the first place. And in doing so, we could work for better education for our people in our understanding of history, as well as better ideas in how to make economic deals with other nations, if we were aware of their intentions.

The point goes beyond "U.S. man bad. Latin America great. Unga Bunga smash, if not for big mean U.S." which was the whingy strategy Chávez used. It's an understanding of which factors have been piling up that lead to economical decisions which affect so many people right now.

Edited by Aszur on Jun 22nd 2020 at 2:00:57 PM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#4187: Jun 22nd 2020 at 1:22:16 PM

Just a heads up on the Evangelists and Bolsonaro, there is some evidence that the USA supported the spread of Protestantism (especially its Calvinistic variant) in the region to create a shift of values from those supported by the Catholic Church to others more friendly to usonian values.

Needless to say this is rather controversial to touch open because the region, while no longer holding Christian Catholicism as the official religion of the state, is an intrinsic part of our culture, something that bothers not only the protestants -who tend to be right wing overall- but also some of the, forgive the expression, self-cringe atheists -who tend to the left- who look at Europe as an example of secularism and want to replicate that here amongst the other things that, as I explained before, doesn't really translate to our reality.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4188: Jun 22nd 2020 at 3:08:10 PM

Yeah it’s worth noting that the US‘s relationship to fundamentalist Evangelical Christian groups in the developing world probably companies reasonably well to the relationship that Saudi Arabia has with fundamentalist Sunni Muslim groups.

Now a society still needs to be a fertile ground for said ideas to take route, but let’s not pretend that the US doesn't export extremist ideology, it was only 2009 when US preachers in Uganda helped move forward the idea of homosexuality being a capital offence.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4189: Jun 22nd 2020 at 7:03:22 PM

Poison goes where poison is welcome.

Disgusted, but not surprised
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#4190: Jun 22nd 2020 at 8:29:00 PM

You want to continue this topic on the Latin American thread? I think the current discussion would be better handled there.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4191: Jun 22nd 2020 at 8:33:54 PM

there is two thing here that are in conflict with each other: From one part US have middle in latin america and that is a truth.

On the other hand anti american and anti imperalist stands have prove to be a joke in most part: revanchist, pro dictatorship, pro imperalist as long said place fuck with US and very, VERY populist.

Chavez is pretty much the maximum exponent of that and if the left want to be serious and respect again it should rethink why it happen what it happen, I wont trust them again after this.

Also, I have a very intense hatred for the cuban goverment for enblaing chavez and their middling in venezuela.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4192: Jul 5th 2020 at 10:25:53 PM

So, the PSUV finally decided what to do with their prision population.

Give weapons and train them to defend Venezuela from the Gringos.

I am quite impressed by how the PSUV literally admits they're thugs and they're proud of it. It already was a regime ruled by criminals, but now the army would be made of actual prisioners.

At this point, I am honestly believing the PSUV had decided to read the Star Wars EU and they are just copying The Contingency

"If an Empire cannot protect its Emperor then that Empire must be deemed a failure. It collapses not only because its central figure is gone, but because it must not be allowed to remain!"

This logic more of less would explain this choice of giving actual military weapons and training to street thugs. The PSUV deliberately wants to made the aftermath as bloody and painful as possible

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 5th 2020 at 12:35:37 PM

Watch me destroying my country
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#4193: Jul 6th 2020 at 3:25:04 AM

... There are dumb ideas, there are stupid ideas and then there are bloody insane ideas.

I know where I'm filing this impending escalation of chaos.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4194: Jul 6th 2020 at 3:32:45 AM

[up]Damn near every idea Maduro and the PSUV have come up with over the years fit in one of those categories.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4195: Jul 6th 2020 at 3:39:51 AM

have any other goverment in the world be rule by kleptocracy and with kleptoarmy?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4197: Jul 14th 2020 at 9:49:51 PM

I was wondering; did FARC and the ELN ever use Venezuela as a sanctuary?

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#4198: Jul 14th 2020 at 9:53:36 PM

I can't say that for sure, but given that there was a controversy with the Chavez regime allegedly funding the FARC then it's not that farfetched.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4199: Jul 14th 2020 at 10:01:04 PM

Considering how Chavez quickly increased ties with all the big and militant far-left groups, such as the Tupamaros, I'd bet there was some degree of covert assistance to the FARC, and perhaps the ELN. Shared goals and ideology. Ammunition, money, training, I'm unsure, but it could be one of those things. Maybe corrupt Venezuelan officials and officers gave them a cut of the drug trade too.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jul 14th 2020 at 10:01:50 AM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun

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