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Reasons why we think Troper Tales should be removed

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Loyal2NES Since: Jan, 2001
#176: Aug 7th 2011 at 10:26:34 PM

The new TT seems a bit bare. Ten pages would probably be fine under the old system but I suspect you'll need quite a bit more sample data using only the new stuff.

Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
#177: Aug 7th 2011 at 10:27:55 PM

Both. I don't know what This Troper already covered, and I can't think of any obvious ways to avoid it without screwing up the sample, so I'll go with whatever the Random Number God turns up.

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.
Culex Since: Dec, 1969
#178: Aug 7th 2011 at 10:29:14 PM

Maybe just keep adding pages until you reach 100 total tales?

Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
#179: Aug 7th 2011 at 10:53:07 PM

10 pages will be well above that, if what I've seen so far is representative, and I want to eliminate biasing my results by sampling from particularly good or bad pages as much as possible.

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.
Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
#180: Aug 8th 2011 at 12:00:14 AM

Results are in.

Methodology: I used the "Random Trope" function repeatedly until hitting a page with more than one Troper Tales entry attached, then went through all its attached Troper Tales entries (archived and otherwise) and tallied up the results. Note that the vast majority of the entries being considered are archived; I'd estimate that about two-thirds of the tales in the new system are bad, which while a bad track record is still somewhat better than the old system.

My results, sorted by trope:

Evil Elevator:

Probably false: |
Do not fit trope: |||||
Trivial: ||||||||
Speculative/dream/what-if scenario: |
Legitimate: |

Total: 15 bad, 1 good

Digging Yourself Deeper:

Trivial: ||
Me Too!/excessively laconic/bare assertion: |||||||||
Belongs on main page: |
Bare assertion plus attempt at self-demonstration: |||
Braggadocio: ||||||
Does not fit trope: ||||||
Bad formatting: |
Legitimate: |||||||

Total: 28 bad, 7 good

Talking in Your Dreams:

Trivial: |
Does not fit trope: |

Total: 2 bad, 0 good

Fan-Preferred Couple:

Note: This is kind of a nasty one: either I throw out all personal preferences on the grounds that they don't fit the trope (which is supposed to be fandom-wide), or I keep them on the grounds that that's what the TT namespace is for, and the main page leaves it ambiguous as to which is acceptable. For the time being, I've counted personal reactions with more than a sentence or two of explanation under "Legitimate (personal)", and those without under "Trivial". Claims of belonging to some shipping faction go under "Does not fit trope".

Trivial: |||||
Does not fit trope: |
Legitimate (personal): ||

Total: 6 bad. 2 good

Strawman Emotional:

Does not fit trope: ||
"Subversion": |

Total: 3 bad, 0 good

Writing by the Seat of Your Pants:

Note: I'm counting "I have a plot skeleton and a few scenes in mind, but..." as not fitting the spirit of the trope.

Unnecessarily laconic/bare assertion: |||
Does not fit trope: ||||||
"Inversion": |
Legitimate: |||

Total: 10 bad, 3 good

Fag Hag:

Note: Having one gay friend, or being friends with a gay couple, doesn't make you a Fag Hag. Neither does being part of a large same-sex group with one or two gay opposite-sex members. I'm also not counting gay or lesbian friends to opposite-sex gay or lesbian groups; by my reading the trope requires a straight participant, although I'm counting Dyke Tyke tales as legit.

Trivial: ||||||
Unnecessarily laconic/bare assertion: |||||
Does not fit trope: |||||||||||||
Bad writing: ||
"Aversion": |
Legitimate: |||||||

Total: 28 bad, 7 good

True Art Is Incomprehensible:

Note: I think I've heard a couple of the stories that I'm counting as "legitimate" before. If I know I have, I'm putting it under "probably false".

Unnecessarily self-demonstrating: |
Trivial: ||||||||||||||||
Does not fit trope: |||||||||||||||||||||
Bad joke: ||
Should be in main page: ||||||||
Probably false: ||||||
"Aversion", "subversion", or similar: ||||||
Braggadocio: |||
Legitimate: |||||||||||||||

Total: 66 bad, 15 good

Beeping Computers:

Note: ...although the stuff I've counted as legit is very old industry lore.

Trivial: |||||
"Aversion": ||
Does not fit trope: ||
Braggadocio (impressive, given the trope): |
Legitimate: ||

Total: 10 bad, 2 good

Look Both Ways:

Note: As this is a death trope, I'm throwing out anything where no one dies.

Trivial: ||
Does not fit trope: ||

Total: 4 bad, 0 good.

Grand total: 172 bad, 37 good, or 82% bad.

edited 8th Aug '11 12:04:20 AM by Nornagest

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.
Jackerel SURPRISE from ur sentry Since: Feb, 2011
SURPRISE
#181: Aug 8th 2011 at 12:02:17 AM

Jesus Christ, Norn. You're a hero... or a masochist.

Was Jack Mackerel. | i rite gud
SpellBlade Since: Dec, 1969
#182: Aug 8th 2011 at 12:08:37 AM

Let's link to his post in the crowner so more people will see it.

Ponicalica from facing Buttercup Since: May, 2010
#183: Aug 8th 2011 at 12:22:50 AM

Jackerel: I believe the correct answer is «both».

the future we had hoped for
Kinkajou I'm Only Sleeping Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Hiding
I'm Only Sleeping
#184: Aug 8th 2011 at 12:23:31 AM

Taking one for the team.

82% bad? Not surprised.

INT is knowing a tomato is a fruit. WIS is knowing it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. CHA is convincing people that it does.
Nyarly Das kann doch nicht sein! from Saksa Since: Feb, 2012
Das kann doch nicht sein!
#185: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:00:25 AM

edited 25th Aug '11 6:03:24 AM by Nyarly

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.
SpainSun Laugh it off, everybody from Somewhere Beyond Here Since: Jan, 2010
Laugh it off, everybody
#186: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:04:00 AM

Clearly, the solution is riot.

No, but really. If we don't at least try, than we manage to actually accomplish less than nothing. At least at this point we can say we put legitimate effort into it.

I spread my wings and I learn how to fly....
EnglishIvy Since: Aug, 2011
#187: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:07:45 AM

@Nyarly: You think he would have said something, by now... where is he?

nuclearneo577 from My computer. Since: Dec, 2009
#188: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:09:14 AM

I have no idea. Sending a PM.

EDIT: Done.

[down][down]And there he is.

edited 8th Aug '11 1:44:22 AM by nuclearneo577

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#189: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:33:26 AM

[up][up][up][up]I almost wonder if he has a point there. Given that Troper Tales seems to be the Wretched Hive where our more "undesirable elements" go - even more so then Darth Wiki, especially now that it's more monitored - we should give some thought to where said undesirable elements will go if Troper Tales gets the chop.

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#190: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:42:27 AM

I'm not necessarily sticking up for TT. I do think there isn't as much trouble there as some people seem to think there is.

If we think it should go — not some jerkoffs on another site — then it should go.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
#191: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:43:23 AM

@nrjxll — Honestly, I'm not very convinced by that argument. Complaining on the main namespace didn't get much less common while it was kosher on Darth Wiki, and it didn't get much more common when it stopped being so. I've seen the same pattern repeated a couple of times in other contexts, most recently the IJBM debacle.

The "quarantine" argument no longer seems fashionable in the administration debates I've had the morbid curiosity to look into in the last few months, and I think there's a very good reason for that. No reason not to extend it to this context.

edited 8th Aug '11 1:46:31 AM by Nornagest

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.
SpainSun Laugh it off, everybody from Somewhere Beyond Here Since: Jan, 2010
Laugh it off, everybody
#192: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:46:49 AM

Eddie: I understand that notion.

I've been concerned that offsite communities may be gaining too much influence on our policy too, but ultimately, 70-odd people are not going to do something just because someone told them to. If that were the case, there would be a lot of down votes too, and there's not, there's less than twenty.

I think at this point, it is more than safe to say that the Troper community as a whole does not want Troper Tales anywhere near us anymore, as a majority.

I spread my wings and I learn how to fly....
nuclearneo577 from My computer. Since: Dec, 2009
#193: Aug 8th 2011 at 1:51:55 AM

[up]Also, there used to be all those Unknown Tropers who kept adding to troper tales, and they are all gone since The Google Incident, so they are no longer part of the troper whole.

edited 8th Aug '11 1:53:31 AM by nuclearneo577

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#194: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:05:49 AM

Eddie: No this is the tropers as far as I know. How many times have we tried to fix it and only have it start going wayward. I think it is honestly time to just cut it loose or cut it out. It is not really worth either the time or effort that, we, as a community and the mod team could possibly redirect to other issues.

Really Norn's foray into it has pretty much sealed the deal for me.

edited 8th Aug '11 2:17:44 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Bookyangel2438 from New York City Since: Jul, 2011
#195: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:09:17 AM

Actually, I'd like it to be kept. (posted earlier)

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.
Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#196: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:32:29 AM

People here have voted 90-11 to nuke it. Not a vote at any other site, but right here.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
LunaAvril Since: Jul, 2010
#197: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:36:08 AM

I've been thinking of making a separate wiki for Troper Tales. I've already reserved a wikia address, and I've recreated a couple of pages on there, but if anyone else is up for it, I would love to have someone more wiki-savvy help me.

Studies show; Intelligent girls are more depressed 'Cause they know what the world's really like
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#198: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:45:29 AM

Lets wait for the final tally before we do that. If it does get voted for removal i would say if you guys want it you can have it.

Who watches the watchmen?
MangaManiac Since: Aug, 2010
#199: Aug 8th 2011 at 2:45:42 AM

[up][up]I'm pretty wiki-savvy, as far as Wikia goes.

Does it have to be Wikia though?

edited 8th Aug '11 2:46:00 AM by MangaManiac

ProgenyExMachina : The Musical from a place you won't leave Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
: The Musical
#200: Aug 8th 2011 at 3:00:11 AM

I realize that the following will likely discredit me entirely, but since one nay in a sea of yays won't do jack shit anyway, I'm going to speak up. I am reminded, in a way, of my nail-biting habit. (Bear with me.) I look at my fingernail, and see that it's not perfectly round. So I bite at it, and I manage to fix the imperfection I noticed...but then another one, a much smaller one I wouldn't have given a second glance before, suddenly stands out so badly that I have to re-"manicure" myself, and the process continues until I've gotten it so short it hurts even to touch that finger...and I can still see uneven spots. This is what I'm seeing happening to the wiki: with the frenetic purge of trouble spots, things that were completely ignored are suddenly glaring errors that must be cut/purged/redone — that's the only explanation I see for why so many things are being changed nowadays, and while certainly many of the earlier changes were beneficial, there's a point at which we need to lay off and accept that nothing is perfect. I can't shake the feeling that if we keep picking at decreasingly pervasive issues, the nail is eventually going to be gone.

As I said, I know my thoughts won't matter in the slightest, but I would be extremely upset to see it go. Naturally, I'm highly displeased with the reformat, but at least it's there. I haven't seen Fetish Fuel Wiki, but if the only other option is to zap it entirely, then I heavily support following the leader with Troper Tales.

(On another note, though, the overwhelming majority is pretty horrifying — loads of people use TT, but now the exact same people are voting to get rid of it? If they weren't the same people, obviously there would be a lot more nays from those people, so...I'm genuinely confused...?)

SingleProposition: TroperTalesRedux
7th Aug '11 8:35:49 PM

Crown Description:

Should Troper Tales be removed? Vote down for no, up for yes.

Total posts: 3,165
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