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The Silmarillion is a GOLD MINE of unused ideas.

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ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#26: Jun 24th 2013 at 9:52:44 AM

True, we didn't get much about the Fourth Age. "The New Shadow" would have been about that, but JRRT abandoned it. We're left with the obvious conclusion that Gondor, Arnor, Rohan, the Shire, Mirkwood, etc. collapsed or were conquered and their civilizations, cities, technology, and laguages vanished, while all the Dwarves maybe died, but not details.

There's also The End of time, when all of Arda is dissolved, or blown up, or Healed of the Marring, or something. Of which there are only vague OOC guesses by JRRT, vaguer IC speculation by Elven scholars, and Ulmo cryptically referring to it as "the Full-Making."

For that matter, the end of the First Age didn't get much. Like the Second Age and most of the Third Age, we have broad outlines of what happened, but not much else. Compared to the other Silmarillion chapters, 22-24 cover a lot of events in not many pages and very little detail. They were put together from short drafts written in the late 1930s before LOTR plus a few miniscule fragments from the 1950s, unlike the rest of the book which comes from longer, more complete 1950s texts.

Out of all the stories never written, post-LOTR versions of that time period are what I regret the most. A completed Lay of Leithian is probably what I regret second-most.

edited 24th Jun '13 10:03:13 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#27: Jun 24th 2013 at 10:13:07 AM

It would have been nice to get an acount of the last day of the War of Wrath in similar detail to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. We had such epic stuff as the Valar going out in full force, Earendil fighting Angcalagan the Black the largest dragon in his airship with a Silmaril inhand as they fought over the Black Mountains, all of Morgoth's balrogs and darkest creatures pouring out as a last reserve, and all the remaining elves and many houses of men fighting together.

It makes me sad the Hobbit is being adapted, rather than the Silmarillion. There's enough material to make a really epic trilogy, rather than stretching out a story that that could have been told in two hours.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#28: Jun 24th 2013 at 12:33:30 PM

I don't like Peter Jackson's films, and I don't like that they're overtaking the books in people's minds. So I wouldn't watch a Silmarillion film.

I would read good Silmarillion fanfiction.

Regarding the War of Wrath: I wonder just how Earendil did that. I imagine the Silmaril was either bound to his forehead or used as the ship's lantern, but presumably he was standing on deck holding the tiller. How did he get close enough to Ancalagon to hit him with a sword? Did he jump off the ship, stab the dragon, jumb back aboard to pull Vingilote out of a dive, then leap back into battle, over and over? I'm imagining something almost like an over-the-top wuxia movie, with superhuman jumps and standing on thin ropes in the rigging and cinematic piloting. But it seems like a situation where archery would be more useful.

Maybe there's a spot where he can stand on the tip of the prow, reach back with one hand to control the tiller while wielding a sword in his other hand? Then he could steer the ship to get the prow close in?

edited 24th Jun '13 12:47:39 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#29: Jun 24th 2013 at 1:11:15 PM

Middle Earth battles tend to be rather "epic" in nature, in that their outcome is based on a nebulous comparison of "might" rather than any specific tactics.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#30: Jun 24th 2013 at 1:50:40 PM

Sure. I just wonder how he managed it. I mean, JRRT described in some detail how Turin slew Glaurung.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#31: Jun 24th 2013 at 3:29:41 PM

I'm just sad that the War of Wrath was less than a chapter long. It was a conflict that lasted for several decades and ended in the destruction of a continent; it would be awesome to see it expanded.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#32: Jun 24th 2013 at 3:32:16 PM

[up]I read somewhere (and am unsure if it's accurate) that in Tolkien's original plan, the Voyage of Earendil/War of Wrath cycle was supposed to be as long or longer than the entire rest of the Sil. Unfortunately (and ironically), it ended up getting probably the least direct attention of the major landmark events of the Legendarium.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#33: Jun 24th 2013 at 4:22:15 PM

Earendil was supposed to have a bunch of voyages and do a bunch of neat stuff while searching for the way to Valinor, but all the book says amounts to "he had amazing adventures while Elwing stayed home." The one adventure originally attributed to him (slaying Ungoliante) was later dropped. Plus we don't learn anything about his crew, except the names of three.

If he'd finished the Silmarillion after writing LOTR, Tolkien might have expanded chapters 22-24 into many chapters. I don't recall reading that it would have been half the finished book, but certainly it would have been longer than 3 chapters for everything after the death of Turin.

The Fall of Gondolin also wasn't ever expanded from the really short version from the 1930s.

edited 24th Jun '13 4:26:38 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#34: Jun 24th 2013 at 5:48:59 PM

Well, the Book of Lost Tales has more details on both. Disregarding the compatibility issues with the later legendarium, the first version of the Fall of Gondolin is the most detailed we have and is around 30 pages long. Makes me wish among other things that Tolkien hadn't abandoned his planned novel-length account of Tuer's story similar to Turin's. Especially how Tuer alone became one of the Eldar, something no one has ever managed. It must have been something incredible enough to change his destiny forever for that to happen. For a better look at Earendil's sailing adventures, look at the successive drafts of his song in I think volume 7.

It starts out fanciful like T Bo LT, but progressively gets more inline with Lo TR while trimming down his exploits until we get the one from the final draft. It's interesting to consider if any of the ideas from the Book would have been revisited or adapted into the canon.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#35: Jun 25th 2013 at 6:15:28 PM

Clearly if the life of the Quendi could be taken away from Luthien for the sake of love, so the "gift of Men" could be taken away from Tuor for the same purpose. It's clear that the Elf and half-elf women seemed to prefer immortality, so Tuor yielded to Idril (much as Earendil later yielded to Elwing) since neither of them ended up suffering physical death (Luthien chose mortality in exchange for being res'd).

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#36: Jun 25th 2013 at 6:57:03 PM

[up]What Mandos did for Luthien was pretty clearly a one-time thing, though, and it took bending the rules (and, IIRC, the go-ahead from Manwe) to do it. About Tuor, I've always kind of liked the idea that he was able to become immortal because Luthien became mortal; in other words, Mandos granted the opposite boon to balance out his previous action, in a very weird twist on Balancing Death's Books.

NIkkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#37: Jun 25th 2013 at 7:17:51 PM

What's up with all the Eöl bashing on the Sil pages? Yeah, he wasn't a nice guy in the end but worse than Feanor? I hated Feanoar and found him more despicable than either Melkor or Sauron.

Plus Eöl's utterly harmless sitcom level act of leading Aredhel into his part of the woods is treated like something monstrous on his character sheet. He led her to him but he did not in any way force her to love him.

Neither he nor Maaeglin were half as despicable as Feanor.

edited 25th Jun '13 7:20:04 PM by NIkkolas

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#38: Jun 25th 2013 at 9:09:35 PM

I certainly got the idea that there was some degree of non-consent in the case of Eol and Aredhel, although it could well have been that Aredhel's own wilfulness brought her into the situation and then she found she couldn't get out.

Not sure what Tolkien was going for there, exactly.

aurora369 Since: Jan, 2001
#39: Nov 2nd 2013 at 10:08:43 AM

Well, I do have a fanfic set in the War of Wrath, however my treatment of it is fairly unconventional. In the fic, most of the War consisted of Morgoth's forces and the Host of the West staring each other down, gathering forces and waiting for an opening in the enemy's defenses, not unlike the Cold War... yes, because of the whole MAD thing and the imminent sinking of Beleriand if the thing gets really hot. Until an opening is created in Morgoth's defenses as the protagonist starts a rebellion against the dark lord. Then it goes epic, meaty and tragic. However, most of the initial part (written to this point) is a dystopian account of life under Morgoth and the protagonist's flashbacks detailing his past.

edited 2nd Nov '13 10:14:14 AM by aurora369

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