The Swordmage class basically gets to have it's cake and eat it too, in the whole fighter versus wizard debate.
edited 1st Dec '11 2:44:16 AM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidSee, I already explained the "Why can a fighter only hit with his axe so many times per day?" part. But no one ever listens. That's why I'm convinced that people that dislike the 4E set up [Edit: IN REGARDS TO POWER USAGE] don't do it due to valid objections, but to a guttural rejection. Which is fine-it's not for everyone. Just don't create BS reasons for why you dislike it.
edited 1st Dec '11 8:17:57 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
Why can a football player make that really awesome run to the goal from half way across the field only once in the game?
Because doing things like that require a mixture of luck and a good set up.
Also, even if we ignore this moronic "realism" (in a game about dragons and orcs) quirk, it's the fact that it's a game and the power is strong enough that if it could be spammed it would unbalance the game.
Why, again, are wizards the only ones allowed to do cool stuff?
edited 1st Dec '11 9:36:27 AM by PataHikari
Again, powers aren't really what the character can do from a simulationistic aspect, they're about what the character can do narratively.
Ever notice how there's a difference between how Dragonball Z Budokai is played and how the TV show works? You don't see the characters spamming ranged energy attacks, they mix it up in melee, even if that's not ideal. Why? Narrative.
If what you want is pure simulationism, 4E definitely doesn't have that-but use that as your argument.
Because doing things like that require a mixture of luck and a good set up.
Good explanation, actually. I can dig it. I did admit that it was a minor nitpick (And only a minor reason my group and I didn't like 4th edition.
And? Still have to penetrate Spell Resistance and make a save. Maybe I need to learn how to munchkin better, but especially against more powerful creatures, those attacks have a very poor chance of working, leaving the mage spending three rounds dancing funny and accomplishing nothing. At least as a Fighter, you know you're doing something when you hit.
I know very few people agree with me on this, but I just don't see this as a real problem. Maybe I just enjoy the visceral satisfaction of smacking things around and being able to take getting smacked around in kind, and have never felt 'restriced' when all I can do was hit things. In the end, our goal is to wipe out the enemy, right? What difference does it make if I do it with brute force or a fancy spell?
You forgot about clerics and druids. (Insert silly smiley here.)
I'm sure it does come up with other groups, but I've never seen the problem with wizards and clerics stealing the show. Every 'awesome spell' they cast is one less spell they can use elsewhere. What good is it to bypass every trap in the dungeon if it leaves you with nothing against the boss?
I'm guessing scrolls have something to do with it, writing scrolls for future use. If only any of the campaigns I've been in have had time for scroll scribing. We always seem to be in a rush to get to point X before the Enemy does. Probably explains it a fair bit.
And what's not cool about a fighter standing toe-to-toe with a dragon, trading blows and getting a face full of fire breath and still standing at the end?
edited 1st Dec '11 10:40:35 AM by TriggerLoaded
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.I've said it earlier in the topic, but to say it again, I'm not looking for pure realism, but verisimilitude. Not that things have to be realistic, but the have to be believable enough that I can accept it and roleplay. I know there's rules and silly abstractions done for the purpose of game balance, but there's a fine balance where if you go too far, the rules start to infringe on my immersion. Obviously, my limits are not, and shouldn't be, everyone's limits.
Fourth edition, for my group, went too far to preserve game balance. It ruined immersion for me. I'm trying to think of a metaphor, something along the lines of being able to see the gears working behind the scenes when playing.
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.I think it's time to start playing Grognard Bingo.
Anyways, to actually deconstruct your silly grognard arguments.
Except that's never how it goes.
"Oops, the wizard's almost out of spells. Time to cast Rope Trick and wait 8 hours for his spells to return"
Because, again, that never happens in 3.5. Instead the wizard casts some fight ending spell, removing any fun the fighter could have. And again, why does your example preclude the fighter from doing anything other then "I roll to attack"
So a wizard breaking reality is believable to you, but a fighter being cool is not?
Why?
Why can't a fighter be so awesome at swinging a sword he can do things that are impossible for normal people? Mythology (which Dn D borrows a lot from) is full of fighters doing epic feats with nothing but skill and ability. Even more modern fantasy has this. Yet it's not allowed in 3.5, because it would ruin ~*verisimilitude*~
edited 1st Dec '11 11:24:46 AM by PataHikari
EDITED: Removed baiting.
Wait 8 hours to restore spells? Does every other group only play in non-timed dungeon romps where you can spend a month going through one room a day? The freedom to wait eight hours is rarely available in any of the games I'm in. Unlike FF 7, that meteor isn't going to hang in the sky forever. Or whatever is threatening reality.
I keep hearing so much about these fight ending spells, and I never see them. Or they'd only end the fight if you make both the Spell Penetration (Which is quite high) And they fail their save (Which is also quite high.) And if that's a high-level spell, and one misses... Well, now what? One high-level spell slot gone to accomplish nothing except maybe pull aggro on the Dragon.
As opposed to what? Dancing? I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Please clarify.
That's not what I meant by verisimilitude. I want my Fighters to do cool stuff. (I've gotten into arguments with my DM over it.) It's the whole rule presentation of 4th edition that ruins immersion for me. Too much stuff I have to accept because "It's the rules." I have a hard time trying to play my character as a character when I can literally see limitation in-game due to the way the rules dictate the world works. It's not the Fighter rules, it's the rules of the game itself for all classes.
I would add I play Pathfinder now, but I doubt that's improved things much for you.
edited 1st Dec '11 12:15:35 PM by TriggerLoaded
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.There you go. : )
Anyway on the whole I prefer 4e over 3.5 despite my nitpicking. It may lack some of the flavour of 3.5, but it's simple to play and it'sfun, something D&D needs to be to attract newbies to gaming.
edited 1st Dec '11 1:45:51 PM by joeyjojo
hashtagsarestupidIf you want verisimilitude, fighters will always die horribly and be replaced by wizards. The Wizards, in a setting with verisimilitude, are just a loooooot more powerful. So no one will play one.
Fighters become a non-PC class. If that's what you want, fine. It works for many settings-though, I would argue that is very much NOT what Dungeons and Dragons is.
THE RULES DO NOT DICTATE HOW THE WORLD WORKS.
I mean.. holy crap, how can anybody actually think that the rules of a game is a literal expression of the world's physics? Everything is an abstraction, not meant to represent the "reality" of the world but rather the rules by which the player effects it.
Levels and stars are an abstraction, representing a rough idea of how "good" a character is at what they do. HP is an abstraction, a mix of luck and ability to avoid a major blow and the ability to ignore minor injuries. Powers are an abstraction representing the ability of the character to do the right strike at the right moment.
The rules exist to provide a fun framework to combat and other activities with a risk of failure. They are not meant to be "how the world works."
Also,
And yet you prefer the system that offers no mechanical support for them doing cool stuff.
edited 1st Dec '11 3:08:07 PM by PataHikari
Rules dictating how the world works is basically what verisimilitude means. Doesn't mean that the rules are realistic, just means the rules define the game reality, rather than being a reflection of them.
I can't fathom how anyone plays that way, but hey, to each their own. I guess. Though even 3.5 wasn't great at it.
When it gets in the way of trying to envision the world, they do.
And of course it's an abstraction. Both 3.5 and 4th are abstractions. But fourth edition just went too far. I don't enjoy it.
To put it one way, imagine in a video game you try to go outside the path, but clonk into an invisible wall whenever you do so. Or in a play, not being able to take it seriously because you can see the boards holding up the props, and they used ropes instead of string to hold up the main actor. Sure, others can go along with it, but fourth edition just had too many moments where the rules were plainly obvious and didn't make it seem like a real world. Real in this sense being my ability to believe the world makes sense. Not real in comparison to our world. Of course dragons breathing flame and wizards calling fourth dimensional rips aren't realistic, but they should still behave in a reasonable manner. Seeing the strings is one thing. Seeing the ropes, nails, tape, and the beard fall off the main actor just ruins immersion for me. Arbitrary restrictions and limitations (In general, not in wizard's powers) purely for balance without consideration for how it would seem to a character inside that world. That's what annoys me about fourth edition.
How so? I've been playing a Fighter since Lv. 1. I'm Lv. 28 now, and I've never felt marginalized or useless.
But I think we need to step back a moment. Our arguments are starting to get into issues I wasn't talking about in the first place.
=====
Initially, my argument is that I do not grasp the complaint of "All fighters get to do is hit stuff," As if it's somehow boring to hit stuff. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I just don't see it as a bad thing. As mentioned, I've been playing a fighter whose done nothing but hit stuff since first level, and get hit in return. I've never felt marginalized, useless, or pathetic in comparison to our spellcasters.
Now, if the argument is that fighters can only roll to hit, while mages can take over the whole party's role with the right spell selection, I refer you again to the limited spell-charges. Every ability the wizard takes over for is one less spell he can use to prepare for another situation. Nearly every mission my group has been a part of has been time sensitive in one way or another, and we can't afford to dick around for eight hours every three encounters.
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.edited 1st Dec '11 4:27:50 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.holy crap, how can anybody actually think that the rules of a game is a literal expression of the world's physics?
By playing 3e, and carrying assumptions over to 4e?
I'm trying to think of a metaphor, something along the lines of being able to see the gears working behind the scenes when playing.
I can see how you would dislike it because of this, because i like it because of this. Reading the rules gave me an understanding of how things actually work.
Pages Needing Images3E didn't have the rules actually reflect physics.
See: Commoner Railgun.
And I hardly see why someone who's capable of launching 20 foot radius balls of searing fight should, realistically, not be wildly more powerful than some douche with a sword.
If you want to go "Fighters are beyond the normal boundaries of mortal men-they can wrestle elephants to the ground!" and the like, where fighters are basically supernatural, then sure. But then you've abandoned all reason for why power usage somehow breaks verisimilitude!
Now, 4E does abandon verisimilitude, but the notion that it does it on the player side [EDIT: I forgot skill usage. Skill usage is a bit anti-verisimilitudeish sure] is a bit ridiculous. Rather, 4E does it on the monster side. Ala, the existence of minions. When some creatures have literally 1 HP, the already horrible abstraction that is hit points just can't hold up when you think of "HP as tissue damage" (which is basically what you get when you start giving objects HP values). Different creatures that are, narratively, the exact same can have two totally different stat blocks, because if P Cs meet them at different levels, those different stat blocks are relevant.
This does in fact break verisimilitude, but it's also one of the most necessary things for meaningful gameplay EVAR. If you want to have no problems between how the game rules work for the game, and how they work with the scenario, just play free-form.
edited 1st Dec '11 8:22:12 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
Of course, the Commoner Railgun assumes there's rules for things accelerating to high speeds flying fourth and causing more damage.
Or your DM is stoned enough to actually allow that. That's not a rule, it's a rule oversight.
Anyways, breaking physics isn't the problem. It's the entire presentation of the world and the rules. Not just for players, for everybody. Indeed, one of my complaints is that the DM is playing with different rules than the players are.
Gotcha, gotcha. No argument there, but I've never had that issue come up in my games, really. Fighters get less tricks, but they can do them more often. Which balances out in all the games I've been in.
Anyways, I think I need to bow out. The argument is going to go in circles again. How'd I put it before?
There we go, think that insults both sides.
Slightly edited.
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.Again-go play free form.
That's not an insult, I love free form when handled properly.
Anyway, arguing that verisimilitude is somehow more or less important than playability is just about as meaningful as saying that heavy metal is objectively better/worse than rap. I may not be able to wrap my head around it, but different people have different priorities. I just dislike it when people create BS arguments that don't hold up to scrutiny.
edited 1st Dec '11 6:31:05 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
edited 1st Dec '11 7:01:47 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.I'm not straw manning, your position is just wrong.
A sword blow is a sword blow. Unless in the "physics" of the game world, a sword blow deals more tissue damage than an RPG, if you want to have HP be a measurement of tissue damage-hello HP values on objects-then you have to somehow come to grips with the fact that mechanically speaking, a sword blow is going to deal enough damage at high enough levels to compare with an RPG round.
I have yet to actually hear a coherent argument about how power usage breaks verisimilitude. Ergo, rejections of 4E due to powers-rather than, say, minion rules-will continue to be treated as ridiculous until I hear an argument that's actually decent.
Anyway, to clarify: when you say I'm straw manning you, do you or don't you want sword blows to sometimes be able to cut through steel with superhuman strength? Do you want fighters to be mundane and normal in the context of the game narrative or not? Because you seem to be playing both sides.
edited 1st Dec '11 7:34:30 PM by TheyCallMeTomu
Well, so much for me bowing out. I admit I'm a horrible liar.
Hell, I've got nothing against people that play third, fourth, Pathfinder, or Palladium. I get that verisimilitude isn't important to you. Not a problem. I'm just explaining that it is important to me, and going into detail. But we're all dorks sitting around a table rolling dice, right?
If by power usage you mean the Daily/Encounter/At-Will, no issue there. Well, slight issue with durations being fluid like that, but minor nitpicks.
If by power you mean fighters cutting through solid metal, that's not my issue of verismilitude at all. Hell, I love doing crap like that. I even have a special ability with my fighter that gives him the ability to break supposedly indestructable Walls of Force. Nothing to do with Fighters being less powerful than Wizards and thus more realistic. That has never been my issue with fourth edition.
edited 1st Dec '11 7:39:15 PM by TriggerLoaded
Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.Again, 4E abandons verisimilitude and some won't like it.
I just think that the people who are complaining about Fighters having powers aren't losing interest in the game because of a lack of verisimilitude, they're losing interest in the game because it's "too different," and they're afraid of change. Which is a valid objection if you ask me, but if that's going to be the objection you have, then use it.
Where 4E ACTUALLY loses verisimilitude is with the skills system (which I tend not to use) and with the way monsters work. Powers are not an example of a lack of verisimilitude.
Part of it is that I'm arguing against two people at once. It gets confusing.
Anyway, maybe I haven't made this clear re: Powers and verisimilitude.
The reason a superhumanly powerful fighter having "powers" as it pertains to an encounter doesn't break verisimilitude is that, because those powers are superhuman in nature, we can't just infer that it's muscles at work. Maybe it's ki, or Helxis, or some other supernatural Shounen manga "Power of Awesome" energy at work. Once you're running on badass, the exact rules of how often you can do something don't need to be "everything at will."
I think the flip side is that, a case can be made that, say, since there's a power "You run forwards and bash someone with your shield," that that sort of suggests that it's impossible to run forwards and bash someone with your shield without using that power. Now that's silly. You can always run forwards and bash someone with your shield-it's just that the impact of doing so varies based on whether you spend the power. Why? Again: Helxis. Or whatever mythological force makes people larger than life larger than life.
Again, verisimilitude does fall apart when you deal with monsters and crap, I'll give you that much. The fact that a 10th level fighter is different between being a PC or being a monster/NPC can get kind of weird if you're looking at a game as being a simulation of the game world.
edited 1st Dec '11 7:45:09 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Depends whether they are casting Magic Missile or something that would actually matter, like status effects, or some high level Save-or-Die spell. Fighters don't get that choice. All they get to do is hit stuff. With their weapon. For hitpoint damage. All game long, every single turn that allows them.
So no, mages rolling for spell resistance isn't quite the same thing.
edited 1st Dec '11 12:15:00 AM by Kayeka