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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#24301: Dec 29th 2014 at 2:29:32 PM

"Ladies and gentlemen, the #1 problem facing our fair city today is not poverty or police corruption. No. It's ROBOTS."

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#24302: Dec 29th 2014 at 2:31:02 PM

I could see that. A chief complaint about the idea of a Civil War adaptation is that there aren't a lot of classic superheroes anyway. With both Dare Devil and Ant Man launching between The Avengers Age Of Ultron and Captain America Civil War as well as the arrival of the Inhumans over in Agents Of Shield, that may be changing.

edited 29th Dec '14 2:31:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#24303: Dec 29th 2014 at 2:41:43 PM

Getting back to whether Edgar Wright is interested in telling women's stories, let's look at Edgar Wright's output post-Space:

  • Shaun of the Dead, which he co-wrote and directed, has three major female characters:
    • Liz, who spends much of the movie basically just being incentive for Shaun to pull his life together;
    • Barbara, who's only major contributions are being The Load and providing an emotional turning point in the third act;
    • And Dianne, who's there mostly to provide evidence that David is a jackass and who's acting skills come in handy for one scene.
  • Hot Fuzz, which he co-wrote and directed, has a token female police officer there to make double entendres, a few minor villains, and roughly half the murder victims. More women, but all with incredibly few lines.
  • Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, which he directed and adapted, had a mostly female supporting cast from the outset—Kim, Knives, and Romana are unarguably the most important characters beside Scott. Given the adaptation was Wright's idea, I feel comfortable ascribing him at least some credit.
  • The Adventures of Tintin, which he helped adapt, has practically no female characters from the outset. Given that he's one of three credited writers and the director and producer were two of the most powerful men in Hollywood, I'm comfortable not giving him too much shit for this.
  • That leaves The World's End, which only has one female character who also happens to be a love interest and isn't even in most of the movie.

So of the five films Wright's done, we have three that display evidence that he has no interest in telling women's stories, one that displays he'll do it if the source material backs him into it, and one that tells us next to nothing.

Hrm.

edited 29th Dec '14 2:42:46 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#24304: Dec 29th 2014 at 2:49:05 PM

... Honestly, if I ever was upset about Edgar Wright leaving Ant-Man, I don't think I am anymore.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#24305: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:02:40 PM

I could go either way, honestly. Yes, the MCU absolutely needs more and more prominent women, but Edgar Wright writes some wonderfully intelligent and witty stuff. He's not, I don't think, any more or less disinterested in women's stories than most male creators in the Hollywood system.

Ant-Man was, statistically, going to be a story primarily about a male superhero fighting a male supervillain no matter who was put in charge.

edited 29th Dec '14 3:03:23 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Rvdz Don't mock the shocker from in a bar, under the sea Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Don't mock the shocker
#24306: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:33:18 PM

I'm no very familliar with the source material, but I don't think the Scott Pilgrim comic featured women more prominently, since it's about Scott so that's hardly Wright's fault. And all three Cornetto Trilogy films are pretty much the Pegg (who's a co-writer on all three films) & Frost show, and because they're, well, not women, for any of these films to be the story of a woman wouldn't quite work. So I think saying Wright has something against women is pretty stupid.

But hey, he's my favourite director, so I'm not exactly objective. tongue

[up] Oops, that's kinda sorta what you said. Just consider this my two cents.

[down] I see, though I do think that's understandable since he had to make a 100 minute film out of six graphic novels.

edited 29th Dec '14 3:38:43 PM by Rvdz

Sing the song of sixpence that goes burn the witch, we know where you live
LizardBite Shameless Self-Promoter from Two Galaxies Over Since: Jan, 2001
#24307: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:36:17 PM

[up] The Scott Pilgrim comic had a ton of female supporting characters, all of whom were more prominent than they were in the film (though that's mostly because the movie had to cut a lot for time).

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#24308: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:41:58 PM

[up][up]I am pretty sure it's possible to have two male leads while still giving female characters a decent chunk of narrative to work with. Case in point: Captain America: Winter Soldier.

Spaced was literally the Pegg and Frost show but Jessica Stevenson's Daisy Steiner, Julia Deakin's Marsha Klein, and to a lesser extent Katy Carmichael's Twist Morgan all got very meaty parts. Wright was involved there, too, so I feel like Whowho's insistence that something happened after the fact is correct—and it's fairly self-evident exactly what happened. Stevenson was dropped as a writer.

I realize movies are more of a time crunch than TV shows, but Pegg and Wright, when working together, have shown an absurd amount of skill at picking their moments and writing dense narratives with nary a line wasted. I feel like there's nothing stopping them from writing more prominent female roles without sidelining Pegg and Frost as actors if they really wanted to.

[up]It's telling, I think, that Wright chose to drop a lot of the emotional subtext and character arcs, which meant Romana and Kim's characterization become paper-thin, but couldn't bring himself to cut a single one of the Seven Evil Exes despite the fact that only two of them have any plot relevance in and of themselves (Todd and Gideon.)

edited 29th Dec '14 3:45:46 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Rvdz Don't mock the shocker from in a bar, under the sea Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Don't mock the shocker
#24309: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:45:53 PM

Yeah, because I'm kinda sleepy I misunderstood "a woman's story" as having the woman as the protagonist. But now that I get it I agree.

Sing the song of sixpence that goes burn the witch, we know where you live
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24310: Dec 29th 2014 at 3:48:05 PM

SP should probably have been split into two movies or something.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#24311: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:02:20 PM

Ant Man as a production to me feels like it's burdened with all the past iterations it's gone through. (Ant Man is the oldest productions in MCU; as a concept it was started about the same time as the Iron Man movie was)

Marvel wants a movie to bring in some elements of the Pym dynasty (Which can probably summed up as being; Hank Pym, Janet, Ultron, Jocasta, Victor, Vision, Wonder-man The Grim Reaper, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Scott Lang and Cassie Lang) but don't want to retread old ground of Science Hero (Which is being done well by Tony and Bruce) so avoid having Hank as the hero. This is understandable, but looking at MARVEL's recent slates, the obvious choice as the protagonist of the movie bringing in these elements is, as far as I'm concerned, Janet.

She is complete unique amongst the current MCU roster, being a female hero who became a super hero simply because it seems like the logical thing to do when you have access to your (ex) husband's technology. She can fulfil the role often held by Spider-man in the Avengers as someone who's a perfectly normal individual doing this simply because it's the right things to do.

Scot Lang on the overhand is treading on the toes of Hawkeye and the upcoming Luke Cage series.

edited 29th Dec '14 4:04:21 PM by Whowho

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#24312: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:02:55 PM

[up][up]Well, the first one bombed, so we'd never have gotten the sequel.

edited 29th Dec '14 4:03:11 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24313: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:12:38 PM

Also other things should have been changed like marketing it better and kidnapping people to force them to see it.

I don't know, I'm just spitballing here.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#24314: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:12:46 PM

God. I so want an entire movie about Janet. That would have been so good. It both avoids the issue of yet another movie about a white male lead, can bring important Ant-Man stuff into the MCU, and gives us a character type that I don't think has ever actually been in a super-hero film.

[up] Also not having Michael Cera as Scott.

edited 29th Dec '14 4:13:13 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24315: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:14:48 PM

So if First Avengers was a WWII war movie

What about a Wasp movie set whenever the hell she would have been active?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#24316: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:18:20 PM

A psychadelic 60s movie?

My various fanfics.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24317: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:32:36 PM

Yes

Janet flying around in crazy fashions and punching faces something something sexual revolution probably

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#24319: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:40:34 PM

I do like the idea of fleshing out the baron backstory of 1946 to 2008 of the MCU.

In fact earlier this year I plotted out an AU where in 1980 MARVEL decided to create a new MARVEL universe set in 1940 where the marevl comic book time worked in reverse to every year parsing in real life in three years in the comics, and from 1980 to 2000 MARVEL tells the story of the entire latter half of the 20th century.

It was quite baffling trying to figure out which decades to put which heroes' origins in. I ended up telling a story of governments slowly loosing control of the super population as super powers become more and more common place and the world slowly shifting from Russia and the US being Superpowers to free roaming populations and ideologies being the Superpowers.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#24320: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:49:21 PM

I do like the idea of fleshing out the baron backstory of 1946 to 2008 of the MCU

Baron Backstory is my favorite Marvel villain.

"We're home, Chewie."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#24321: Dec 29th 2014 at 4:56:40 PM

His super power is that he lives his life in a non chronological order; so he can add things into his backstory on the fly as he needs.

He tends to win by having had installed a trap door underneath where you're standing every time.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24322: Dec 29th 2014 at 5:03:42 PM

Until you got to that last bit I was going to say "... Wolverine?"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#24324: Dec 29th 2014 at 6:04:35 PM

Regarding the lack of females in that promo image: Guys... it's one image. It doesn't even have the two Ant-Men in it.

I hope this is a Kevin Smith reference.

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#24325: Dec 29th 2014 at 8:11:59 PM

Wonder if the whole Wasp being dead thing is just Marvel being a Lying Creator. They did lie about the Mandarin's identity after all.

As for Edgar Wright, he is a director who I'm a fan of, but I can't help but feel, that after WS and GOTG showed that they were very much a Russo Brothers film and a James Gunn film respectively, despite the studio's involvement, him deciding to leave wasn't a very mature move on his part. Especially considering that with all his other films, he was mainly in control alongside others who more or less shared his vision, and the one time he has a studio telling him that they can't use some of what he wrote, he quits.

Sure, Iron Man 2 was pretty bad in terms of Executive Meddling causing it to act more as an advert for The Avengers, and caused Jon Favreau to leave the series, but that was early in the MCU's life, when they were still working out how to connect the universes while keeping them stand-alone films. Some hurdles are to be expected.

Film is a collaborative medium. And while the director should have some control over his project, the editors and producers are there for a reason. I get that Wright would be unhappy with it being changed by them, since he had been working on this project for years and years (though the fact that he let it sit around while he went off to do other things is rather suspect), but they are there for a reason. If you can't work with other people there to monitor you, then maybe it is good to not work on these sorts of big-budget films.

That said, will Peyton Reed be able to make a good film, considering his rather mediocre track-record and this film's lengthy development?

edited 29th Dec '14 10:44:23 PM by LDragon2


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