Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
So in light of the whole villain hurdles that many people have brought up for this universe
, do you think that Phase 3 will do much better in this department.
Heck, Ultron looks to be one heck of an awesome villain, so I think they are learning.
Maybe so, maybe no. Outside of the occasional "should be more like the comics" accusation, the main point the article brings up is that the villains in the MCU are treated more like simple action movie villains - two dimensional depraved badasses without much development for the heroes to knock down - than actual characters themselves, while the narrative focuses on the hero entirely, which robs them of a lot of potential. They're tendency to do that, iirc, is exactly why Mickey Rourke got pissed at them over Whipslash, and they're still doing it with little signs of stopping. They're saying Ultron is going to have more focus and an interesting backstory/arc, but I recall them saying the same thing about Ronan (who is more interesting than a lot of the villains that directly preceded him, but mainly because they're getting better at doing the same things and not because he got any real development).
This is an issue that goes even beyond them being adaptations, and isn't just going to stop even if they decide to start foregoing. They need to start thinking of their villains as characters who can interact with the world and even exist outside of the specific movies that introduce them, which is essential for a universe to grow but is one of those risky things that makes having a film universe so dissonant from just having films.
I know that I am pretty much alone there, but I think that Ronan was perfect for Got G, because for this movie, it was exactly the kind of villain needed (villains who are just there to be evil can be very enjoyable, just look at Disney, they have a whole string of them). They also set up Nebula as a long-term villain.
I think the problem is less if the villains are two-dimensional or not, but if they are well written. Whiplash wasn't well written at all, which is odd, because the movie spends so much time on him (and his stupid parrot).
In the comics the most humanlike of the major alien races are the Spartoi(Peter is half Spartoi in the comics), Shi'ar(owned by Fox due to their connections to the X-Men. They are also more of a collection of races ), Xandarians(who are wiped out with their planet every time someone needs to look strong), White Kree(Captain Mar-Vell is the most famous of them) and some genetic experiments that resulted in races like the Inhumans, Eternals etc.
Whiplash was much better written than Ronan, who was just flat.
I think MCU!Cosmic Marvel follows Star Wars (and other works) rules, where there are "humans" who have presumably evolved to the same appearance on other planets, and human =/= Earthling.
Also, note that Asgardians are aliens/cosmic beings, too.
Actually, it'd be an interesting twist if it turned out Ronan and the Kree were totally justified and the Guardians picked the wrong side. I mean, Ronan was still working with Thanos, who I'm pretty certain is 100% evil, and I'm sure a non-evil Kree Empire goes against the comics in more ways than I can possibly imagine, but still, it'd be cool.
edited 26th Dec '14 7:20:34 AM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.![]()
I disagree. Ronan got ONE scene and I got his character. Just seeing him bath in the blood of his enemies, monologuing about his fanatic quest to destroy Xander and take revenge for all his ancestors who died fighting them was enough to allow me to get a handle on the character. But Whiplash? I don't get this guy. I kind of get why he wants revenge, but I don't get why he hatches such a convuleted plan. If he wants to kill Tony, he could have gotten that easier, especially since he knew that Tony was dying. So he attacks Tony hoping that someone would be impressed enough to spring him out of prison afterwards? He is supposed to be intelligent, but for such an intelligent guy, he is not particularly clever.
I'm all for Rooting for the Empire and the engaging perspective flips that come with it, but it's hard to justify genocide.
This. I don't think Whiplash ever planned to be sprung from prison. He wanted to destroy Tony's legacy before he died, so that he would go to his palladium grave a discredited Fallen Hero rather than a gloriuous martyr remembered forever for his greatness. His plan was to "make God bleed" and he did that in the racetrack fight when he showed up with the same technology and gave Stark a run for his money live on-camera before the world.
It ties directly into the judicial hearing with Stark's justification for not surrendering his tech being, "No one else can make it and I'm basically completely invincible, so screw you."
edited 26th Dec '14 8:25:15 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.He planned on killing Tony publicly, but making him bleed was an acceptable consolation prize. He never planned on being sprung from prison- he may even have thought he was going to be killed, so it was probably a suicide revenge mission. Vanko was ready to die to see Tony humiliated and / or dead, hence why when he's sprung from prison he just takes advantage of Justin Hammer's resources to try his hand as vengeance again, rather than accept his place as a Hammer employee or even just escape. He's not a poorly written character per say; he's just not really the most interesting or threatening one especially since much of the "tension" comes from Tony not knowing that he's still alive.
Vanko blamed the Stark family for everything that went wrong with his life, including his dad dying in poverty. Tony dying of sickness was not good enough- he need to spit in his face and ruin his legacy, and since Vanko feels he has nothing to lose he's happy to be risk life and limb to achieve that end. The problem is that while he's given a decent level of characterization, he doesn't exactly contribute much to the wider mythos by virtue of being Whiplash. They really should have went the route that Tony actually DID inspire other nations and corporations to SUCCESSFULLY reproduce the Iron Man tech, or bad rip-offs of it anyway, a la the "Iron Wars" story this movie was based off of, and have Hammer as the main villain (and more of a threat) with Whiplash and other IM villains as his underlings or supporting villains.
Also, I don't know who wrote that article, but I'm sure he's very, very handsome.
edited 26th Dec '14 8:43:19 AM by OneEyedDragon
One of the reasons Mickey Rourke has now refused to work with Marvel again is because apparently the character had some character-building scenes that humanized him and played him in a more sympathetic light, but the studio cut all that because they just wanted him to be a cliche Russian bruiser.
It's the similar problem they ran into with Malekith where most of the interesting stuff ended up on the cutting room floor.
I thought they chopped up all of Malekith's stuff to make more room for Loki's sad cutey eyes.
My various fanfics.

Between use, they're refrigerated
Forever liveblogging the Avengers