TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#24076: Dec 20th 2014 at 5:47:42 PM

[up]The only other major thing known is that Daniel Bruhl will also be playing the villain of the movie.

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#24077: Dec 20th 2014 at 6:39:03 PM

[up][up]There have been a lot of successful female lead movies in the past...Hell, Gone with the wind, which is adjusted for inflation still the most successful movie of all time, had a female lead. The Disney Princess movies were always the most successful outputs of the studio, long before Frozen came along. What we need is a truly successful Superheroine movie.

But yeah, I would be surprised if Agent Carter tanked, too.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#24078: Dec 20th 2014 at 6:43:39 PM

[up][up]

I remember that being announced. No idea who he's playing at this point, though I seem to remember them saying that his character would be a secondary villain in Civil War while the main villain in the Doctor Strange movie. If that's the case, then it'll probably be a villain associated with Doctor Strange.

That would also place Doctor Strange on the short list for potential combatants in the Civil War, but as with all things it's not confirmed until Marvel says it's confirmed.

[up] True, there's been a lot of successful female-led movies over the years. I only mention Frozen and Mockingjay specifically because they are so recent and therefore would be more relevant to what the modern moviegoer is looking for.

edited 20th Dec '14 6:48:15 PM by Falrinn

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#24079: Dec 20th 2014 at 7:03:11 PM

[up]The sad truth is that Comic book movies are a little bit behind the general movie business (and that is still backwards). I think just the fact that Frozen is celebrated as a success for feminism despite the fact that there are only two female characters in the whole movie, which barely share any scenes together shows that there is still a long, long way to go.

Not that I don't appreciate that we now at least have some good female characters in comic book movies, but that's only the first step.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#24080: Dec 20th 2014 at 7:13:01 PM

Action movies in general are behind in that sort of thing. Even action movies with female leads tend to show the tell tale signs of being written from a male mindset or being written in a male industry. Either that or writers/directors try to copy the character type of characters like Ripley from Alien without without the same substance.

It's also a problem with video games too. Both genres live off of character types, and often only change alter that in ways that look like they're changing character types but actually aren't.

edited 20th Dec '14 7:15:56 PM by KnownUnknown

GeekCodeRed Since: Sep, 2010
#24081: Dec 21st 2014 at 3:10:06 AM

[up][up] Except the two females are the leads, and the main conflict is pretty much all about the fact that they don't share scenes/spend time together.

You know, with the dead parents, traumatic backstory, Badass Normal partner, and superpowers, Frozen could theoretically count as a superhero film. tongue

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#24082: Dec 21st 2014 at 4:16:56 AM

[up] I don't consider Elsa a lead. She is the most in the advertising, but there is not enough focus on her to consider her a lead, there is way more focus on Anna's love life than on the sister relationship. Plus, when it comes to the number of female characters, Sleeping Beauty runs circles around Frozen, because the movie consists practically only out of females (personally I consider the fairies the leads in this one), and that one was done more than 50 years ago. (Frozen becomes even less an achievement when you know that the source material is about a female lead who goes ALONE on a journey to rescue her friend (not love interest) from a female villain and meets a lot of other interesting females on the way).

Either way, we digress a little bit. I think the point we can agree about is that action movies in general lack compelling female characters, and that the situation in comic book movies is particularly dire. Hopefully Black Widow doesn't retire directly after the next movie and has some scenes with Scarlett Witch. I am kind of tired that each of their superhero teams work on the smurfette principle.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#24083: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:34:08 AM

[up] I think with Superhero movies it's taken awhile because we are dealing with a source material that's very male dominated, especially in regards to the superheroes that are big enough to have name recognition outside the comics community. Marvel has been experimenting with bringing in new female superheroes or giving more significant roles to older ones, and Guardians of the Galaxy has set a strong precedent for comic book movies that don't have a strong name recognition outside the comics community, but it will still take some time before that translates into a more gender-balanced Avenger's lineup.

Still, I do see them moving in that direction over the long term. I'd be very surprised if Black Widow or Scarlet Witch is out of the picture before Infinity War, and by then we'll have Captain Marvel and whatever female Inhumans they bring in during the Inhumans movie. Both Quake and Mockingbird has been introduced into the MCU through the Agents of Shield series, so either of them could be brought into the movies at any time.

Going beyond what's already either in or explicitly planned for the MCU, Captain Marvel and the Inhumans movie opens the door to the new Ms. Marvel. As mentioned before the revamp of Spider-woman's costume indicates they might be prepping the character for an MCU appearance. And assuming they can overcome some of the weirder decisions in how they introduced her, I wouldn't rule out the new female Thor character just yet especially if Thor's actor retires at the end of Phase 3.

All of these factors should prevent a situation where there's only a single female member of the Avengers from the beginning to end of an Avenger's movie.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#24084: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:47:15 AM

[up]The other notable part of the problem is for every woman introduced on average you still get several more men so it makes it difficult to do anything even close to playing catch up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#24085: Dec 21st 2014 at 8:46:35 AM

I would go so far as to call Elsa the villain.

The entire conflict is brought on as a result of choices she makes. The kingdom is in danger because of what she has done, she consistently makes choices that accelerate the conflict rather than resolving it - and in fact, the eventual resolution of said conflict is through little fault of her own. Additionally, her Villain Song is the best song in the entire piece as is typical of Disney productions, and she even manages to kill the hero, an accomplishment few Disney villains can claim. In any other story, Elsa would be the Clear Bad Guy.

What makes Frozen stand out is it's surprisingly well-meaning portrayal of its villain, making a genuine effort to allow the audience to empathize with her even as her actions and choices are threatening the lives of the entire nation, giving her a three-dimensional range of emotions and actually showing her circumstances so that we can sympathize with her just as well as her virtuous sister Anna, and finding a way to bring the conflict to a peaceful resolution that satisfies both hero and villain alike. Anna spends the movie fighting the underlying reasons for villainy, rather than the villain herself.

Throughout the film, Elsa consistently makes things worse and has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the plot resolution, but despite that, she is still by far the most three-dimensional villain in Disney's entire Animated Canon to the point of even getting to participate in the inevitable happy ending. Frozen is an incredibly progressive movie for more reasons than just the True Love's Kiss subversion.

On Women in the MCU

I can't wait for Captain Marvel. Out of all the Phase III movies, I'm most hyped for that one. And I agree that it's unlikely either Widow or Witch would be written out of Infinity War. The only way I can see that happening is if someone's contract fell through and even then, Marvel has already demonstrated a willingness to recast an actor rather than write out a character.

edited 21st Dec '14 8:46:46 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
GeekCodeRed Since: Sep, 2010
#24086: Dec 21st 2014 at 8:50:27 AM

Of course, in the end the villain isn't a villain, and the Prince Charming isn't a Prince Charming.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#24087: Dec 21st 2014 at 8:54:57 AM

I really wouldn't have considered Elsa a villain. She's more like an anti-villain at worst, and more of a deuteragonist than Kristoff ever was.

edited 21st Dec '14 8:55:09 AM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#24088: Dec 21st 2014 at 8:56:12 AM

To be a villain you have to actually be evil or unsympathetic in some way. Elsa's not a villain, she's just an antagonist. To be an antagonist, all you have to do is stop the protagonist from resolving the conflict. Not all villains are antagonists, and not all antagonists are villains.

edited 21st Dec '14 8:59:46 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#24089: Dec 21st 2014 at 9:08:22 AM

[up][up] and [up]: Indeed. I would say that The Duke of Weaseltown Weselton and Prince Hans better fit the definition of villain than Elsa.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
GaryCXJk Wants Captain N for SSBU Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Wants Captain N for SSBU
#24090: Dec 21st 2014 at 1:06:10 PM

I've been thinking, and the best way to start the Inhumans film is to start by showing the terrigenesis of a couple of teens, as part of a coming-of-age ritual. Like, only spend ten minutes on this, and then only sparingly mention said teens. It's an origin story for the entirety of the Inhumans without doing a lot of exposition. Heck, you can even add a voice-over to explain what terrigenesis is. This way people who haven't seen Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. can understand what's happening.

Signatures are for lamers.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#24091: Dec 21st 2014 at 1:45:46 PM

I'm sure they will try to broach the subject of Terrigenesis outside of SHIELD. This is the first time the show has actually introduced a large piece of Marvel mythology so they likely have something cooked up in case this doesn't work out.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#24092: Dec 21st 2014 at 2:30:07 PM

Elsa is definitely the main antagonist of Frozen, even she isn't expressly a villain - the main thing stopping her from being the Big Bad, despite the fact that her actions and the effects of those actions fill the same basic role of one, is that she's acting through confusion and denial rather than malice or intention. On the other hand, the only character who could really be called a "villain" in the sense of being malicious, by contrast, is more or less incidental to the actual plot of the movie.

It's comparable to The Nightmare Before Christmas, where Oogie Boogie is just kind of there to give a bit of closure but all of the important conflict of the movie is caused by the fact that Jack is a Villain Protagonist (and an impulsive fool, besides) and isn't aware of it.

In any case, the protagonist of Frozen is Anna, not Elsa, so it's still a female led movie. Albeit one of a different genre with its own individual set of troubling gender role issues.

edited 21st Dec '14 2:39:03 PM by KnownUnknown

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#24093: Dec 21st 2014 at 3:29:46 PM

Honestly, I hadn't actually seen the movie, and I don't intend to, but from Disney's standard imagery, Elsa seemed to be the villain in the traditional sense at first glance.

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#24094: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:12:57 PM

[up]Elsa was supposed to be the villain originally. Then "Let it go" happened and the whole script got a rewrite, changing the original "villain with redemption story" angle to a construct in which Elsa's actions are constantly excused, making her more an accidental danger, not even a straightforward antagonist.

Speaking of female villains: I wish there were more in the MCU, too. Not only the heroes tend to be male, the villains too. So far, Nebula is the only one in the movies.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#24095: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:17:00 PM

Any in particular that you'd like to see?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#24097: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:20:36 PM

Was it her younger sister that appeared in Agents of SHIELD?

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#24098: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:35:12 PM

The rapist? Yeah that was her.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#24099: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:37:20 PM

I had a neat idea for Janine Thompson as the Beetle, basically doing her bit from the comics (by day HYDRA's lawyer who negotiates between them and other villains, by night teched-up mercenary). As for other female villains - before Ao S did Scorch, I thought they could do something similar with an obscure Iron Man antagonist named Stratosfire. Songbird is also a fun possibility. Moonstone is another interesting one, especially if they're going to the Masters of Evil at some point eventually maybe.

If they eventually do She-Hulk, Titania is a possibility. Or even if not - she's got a thing with Absorbing Man in the comics, and we've already got him. If they ever do something about Black Widow specifically, there are a few other characters who have taken Natasha's name but who haven't been quite as heroic as her, like Yelena Boleva.

Then for a good list of other possibilities there's Superia and all the supervillainess who may or may not be associated with her (keep in mind that most of them have their own villain careers and hero/villain relationships that have nothing do with Superia's Lady Land slant, which I'm not sure would translate well to film).

edited 21st Dec '14 6:42:55 PM by KnownUnknown

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#24100: Dec 21st 2014 at 6:49:21 PM

What about Viper? She sounds very badass, and since we are in a middle of a Hydra plot....(though she already turned up in Wolverine I don't think that she is strictly a X-men villain).

The best female Marvel villain is imho Mystique, but since she is out, it might be a good idea to dig a little deeper.


Total posts: 186,763
Top