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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#23351: Dec 8th 2014 at 9:29:16 AM

[up][up]That's why I never got all these weird fan theories about how Loki would be outraged Coulson survived and would try to seek revenge (I even saw a far fetched theory about how he might be behind the evil events of the show) and all I can think is "Why would he give even the slightest fuck about Coulson?"

That confrontation screamed to me like the personification of But for Me, It Was Tuesday.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23352: Dec 8th 2014 at 9:33:35 AM

He may be outraged that he didn't even manage to kill Coulson. His entire motivation in the Avengers is a petty vengeance over humanity and everything in his path, by the end of the movie he accomplishes jack shit except for killing Phillip Coulson.

But then, he came back. Loki could be pissed off at Coulson still being alive more or less because he represents the colossal failure his Earth invasion was.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23354: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:06:03 AM

His entire motivation in the Avengers is a petty vengeance over humanity and everything in his path, by the end of the movie he accomplishes jack shit except for killing Phillip Coulson.
You really think he killed no one in the Battle of New York? Even by responsibility rather than by his own hand?

I mean, I can see why Coulson's survival might give him pause, he being the victim he interacted with the most, but not nearly to the extent suggested here.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23355: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:07:29 AM

Coulson isn't even the only person he kills personally. There's that guy in Germany whose eye he needed.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#23356: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:10:55 AM

Poor german eye guy

His monocle collection is useless now.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23357: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:12:47 AM

Wouldn't a monocle collection, by definition, be more useful with only one eye? Assuming they weren't all prescription monocles for the other eye, of course. :P

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#23358: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:14:10 AM

No, because wearing a Monocle with an Eye Patch just makes you look silly.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#23361: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:20:50 AM

I don't think Loki would have any anger toward Coulson (or if he did, he wouldn't feel at all angered that Coulson somehow came back-from-the-dead).

Loki only seems to care about humans in terms of Thor. In The Avengers, he was pissed at Thor, and so took it out on him by attempting to conquer Earth- which he also saw as a consolation prize for his real desire of ruling Asgard.

In Thor 2, Loki seems to have an epiphany that Odin is his real enemy and correspondingly is friendly toward Thor- which by extension makes him friendlier toward (as Loki sees it) Thor's pet human, Jane. And by the end, Loki accomplishes his goal of ruling Asgard. So, I don't think he has any interest in causng trouble on Earth at this point, other than encouraging Thor there and sending Sif there in what is partly a wild-goose-chase.

But yeah, since Thanos is the Big Bad of the MCU, it's only a matter of time before he comes after Loki.

edited 8th Dec '14 10:21:48 AM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#23362: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:26:01 AM

That's why I fully expect to see Loki teaming up with the Avengers for the Infinity war. You know, the enemy of my enemy....

I also wonder if Loki and Gamora ever meet each other.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#23363: Dec 8th 2014 at 10:34:56 AM

Wouldn't a monocle collection, by definition, be more useful with only one eye? Assuming they weren't all prescription monocles for the other eye, of course. :P

They're for the wrong eye though.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#23364: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:35:25 PM

They'd have to explain how he's alive to thsoe who don't watch Ao S, which could get kinda awkward.

No, they wouldn't.

  • STEVE: Didn't you die?
  • COULSON: Didn't you hear that from Fury?

Five seconds of dialogue to Hand Wave it for those that haven't watched the show and you're set. Everyone in the audience already thought Fury was full of shit about Coulson's death when he had that exchange with Hill about the cards anyway; the real surprise in the show wasn't that he was alive, but that he had actually died, and even if you don't watch it, he featured prominently in the advertising.

They don't have to stretch to justify Coulson being in the movies because there is not a single person in the audience at this point in time who thinks he's dead.

EDIT: It's like arguing that Thor can't appear in any more Avengers movies because you'd have to recap the entire Dark World movie to justify his presence on Earth.

edited 8th Dec '14 12:40:23 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#23365: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:49:11 PM

Yeah, no that's shitty writing and I'm quite glad Joss has stuck to his guns so far on this when he said he didn't want to bring Coulson back into the movies. "I was dead but Fury lied sorta" is a poor explanation.

edited 8th Dec '14 12:50:15 PM by comicwriter

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#23366: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:51:01 PM

It works for comics...

"Editor's note: Confused why Coulson is alive when he died in Avengers #1? Check out Agents of Shield #11! 'Nuff said!"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#23367: Dec 8th 2014 at 12:57:28 PM

There's no "sorta" about it. Fury DID lie. He lied his ass off about the cards and Hill called him on that lie onscreen. He openly admitted in the first movie that he was lying to motivate the Avengers.

It's not "shitty writing". It's what happened. Fury lied about the circumstances of Coulson's death, and Coulson is alive today. Both of these are 100% fact and are also all the audience needs to know to accept Coulson coming back to the movies. While there are certainly other factors, they're not factors an audience who hasn't watched the show need to have explained to them to accept Coulson coming back.

edited 8th Dec '14 12:58:01 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#23368: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:03:28 PM

....Meh. Whedon himself has reasoned that Coulson's return would eat up too much time to adequately explain because no "Fury lied I'm not dead" is not a satisfactory answer. I'm inclined to take his side on this since he's the one actually writing the damn movie and had a hand in the TV show.

edited 8th Dec '14 1:03:37 PM by comicwriter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23369: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:25:14 PM

As far as Agents of SHIELD explains, Fury didn't lie about that. Coulson did die, and was dead for a while (three days, IIRC). Fury didn't like about Coulson being killed, he lied about where his cards were as part of his ensuing guilt trip.

He didn't tell them about having a possible way of bringing him back to life, but there's a case to be made that they didn't need to know that. At that point, it's wouldn't be impossible to say that he was still mulling over whether to even use it or how to pull it off, since he knew it had dangerous psychotic side effects.

As much as I hate to admit it (because it means admitting that the important tv elements in general have an iffy future in the MCA as a whole), I understand where Whedon's coming from with that. No matter how briefly you explained it, Coulson suddenly showing up alive and dealing with it would draw away from the film (since the plot otherwise has nothing to do with him) and - since it's an issue that should get adequate attention given to it - would likely stop any plot progression dead and feel like a narrative ass pull (no matter how well the show explains it) to have the characters accept it without consequences or attention.

I say they hold off on a full reintroduction into the MCU for the Inhumans movie, since Ao S is starting to seriously tie into that mythos. Since the remnants of the Kree connected to the Inhumans's story are also responsible for his resurrection, he could be part of the exposition of that movie rather than a random external element being forced in.

edited 8th Dec '14 1:30:29 PM by KnownUnknown

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23370: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:35:25 PM

Really. Five years. You think that's a good time to reintroduce Coulson. The show might now even go that long.

Avengers 2 isn't a good time, but do it in, say Civil War. Someplace where there can be a quiet moment where Coulson has a conversation with Tony, and/or Steve.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#23371: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:37:27 PM

I'd be interested to see how Steve would respond to SHIELD 2.0

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23372: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:37:56 PM

Really. Five years. You think that's a good time to reintroduce Coulson.

No. I think that's the plot that would be most compliant to the concept of him being reintroduced, without feeling like an Ass Pull.

Someplace where there can be a quiet moment where Coulson has a conversation with Tony, and/or Steve.

Isn't that a scene they would more than likely give Fury?

That said, the idea that maybe one of them would have Fury's support and the other one has Coulson's support is very interesting.

edited 8th Dec '14 1:44:56 PM by KnownUnknown

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23373: Dec 8th 2014 at 1:49:33 PM

Why would they give the "I come back from the dead and find you acting like an idiot" speech to Fury?

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23375: Dec 8th 2014 at 2:18:00 PM

...please tell me they've invented time travel and are in talks with the Al Pacino of the 70s

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

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