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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#23251: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:33:23 AM

Get angry that there aren't more diverse heroes to begin with.
Why?

That's not something we can fix. That's a thing that happened fifty, sixty years ago. Me being angry isn't going to change anything.

Get angry that the comics don't push the ones they have as hard as they could. Get angry that there aren't more people in Hollywood willing to cast minority actors to become names big enough to make casting colourblind. That's what's going to affect change.
Exactly...and get angry that the people behind the scenes in Hollywood and the Comic world still tend to be white.
Why would you assume I'm not? I'm not an amoeba. My brain can handle multiple things. Sometimes.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23252: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:38:26 AM

This is something you can fix. New heroes are created every day in Marvel.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#23253: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:39:26 AM

@Cosmo as part of the Gotg: Unlikely. He's already been in the movie and he never spoke or did anything that made him look like anything but a normal dog.

[up]Sadly most are mutants.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:44:05 AM by LordofLore

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#23254: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:40:02 AM

Alright, cool. I do want to see more of that.

But what are the chances of those characters getting movies anytime soon? Like, even the white ones have very little chance. You know who do have a chance, though? Old characters. Most of whom are white.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#23255: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:40:51 AM

Personally, John Stewart is my Green Lantern.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23256: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:42:36 AM

I meant more that there's still not very many.

My last word (because I have real things to take care of today) is this: There are better ways to increase diversity than complaining that a white man was cast as a white superhero who is, by all accounts, basically Vincent Price in a cape.

As a comparison, Will Smith as Deadshot in the Suicide Squad movie. I heard that and went "Really? Huh. Weird." (because it's Playing Against Type for him, not because he's black; I had the same reaction to learning that they want Oprah to play Amanda Waller, who typically is portrayed as black these days). I didn't go "Yeah! Score one for diversity!" because Will Smith is probably not going to make everybody look at every other depiction of Floyd Lawton and wonder why he's not black. He'll probably do a very good job, but does it really change anything? Not really.

That's where I'm at.

paperbritt Since: Apr, 2013
#23257: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:42:50 AM

I'm actually kinda shocked that there's this big backlash that they didn't racelift Strange. Like, I get the disappointment in a character pool with less diversity, but I don't get people were expecting him to racelifted to a point where there's this massive outcry over it. Then again, I've always imagined Strange as a take off of Vincent Price.

And in regards to the "white master of a skill taught to him by POC" concerns, they sidestepped the problematic aspects of the Mandarin for Iron Man 3, so I don't doubt they'll do that here.

Also, are we forgetting that Black Panther is gonna be a thing? Like, I know that doesn't magically fix the race issues in the MCU, but it's still a step in the right direction (as is Luke Cage in the Netflix miniseries) but it seems like people are just kinda throwing T'chaka under the bus so they can complain about Benny Cumback.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:43:34 AM by paperbritt

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23258: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:44:30 AM

It's always weird to me when people are like "but wait, why not make new characters?" Because the answer is "yes, of course people should do that", but for some reason people think the answer is "yes, and therefore changing existing ones is bad!" It doesn't follow logically. The existence of one approach doesn't disprove another.

Can you imagine if people went around saying because solar energy exists we shouldn't be using wind? Wouldn't that be strange?

edited 5th Dec '14 9:45:26 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#23259: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:46:01 AM

People can be upset about lack of diversity and happy that slight progress is being made.

I'm really happy about the Black Panther Movie, and the Captain Marvel movie. I'm really happy about Luke Cage. I'm really happy about Agent Carter and Jessica Jones. I'm really happy about Agents of SHIELD having, like, three white main characters. But that doesn't mean they can't do more. Especially since, in the big picture, the cast of Infinity War is most likely still going to be 70% white male.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:46:40 AM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Mr.Didact Keep Hope Alive from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Naked on a bearskin rug, playing the saxophone
Keep Hope Alive
#23260: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:47:59 AM

[up][up][up][up] Will Smith is perhaps THE most recognizable black actor in America. If Suicide Squad does well, the public probably will expect Floyd Lawton to be black from that point onward.

And in the case of Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Black Adam it isn't really a case of race-lifting rather than them now being the races they should have been from the start tongue

Obviously the solution is to go back in time and change a fair bit of the old heroes into different races, thus eliminating all complaints[lol]

edited 5th Dec '14 9:49:37 AM by Mr.Didact

Stand Fast, Stand Strong, Stand Together
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23261: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:50:58 AM

...I'm thinking about the idea that Wonder Woman should've been Israeli from the start and it's cracking me up.

What the hell would a Wonder Woman mythos centered around a monotheistic religion even look like? She'd basically be Jesus, wouldn't she?

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
GeekCodeRed Since: Sep, 2010
#23262: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:51:44 AM

By the way, Guardians of the Galaxy has been nominated for a Best Soundtrack Album Grammy.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23263: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:52:21 AM

It'd better win. That soundtrack is awesome.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23264: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:52:54 AM

[up][up]Of course it is, awards committees are like 90% baby boomers.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:53:09 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23265: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:53:07 AM

[up][up][up][up] Making new characters, or better yet giving existing ones actual focus and development, is a much better solution than changing old ones when the winds change. The latter should be either a last resort or done for different reasons - as noted, its a band-aid, not a solution, it only really looks like it works, and there's a several reasons why someone could claim it actually feeds the problem rather than makeal any real progress.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:55:09 AM by KnownUnknown

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23266: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:53:57 AM

It's not impossible for new heroes to grow in popularity and get their own movies. Case in point: Deadpool was created in the mid-to-late nineties and was a d-lister until 2009 or so when his popularity exploded and now he's in everything under the light of the sun. He's nowhere near a classic Marvel character, but he climbed his way to the top.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
lackofsense Since: Jan, 2013
#23267: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:53:57 AM

Look, I'm not against more diversity in comic movies. I am against diversity for diversity's sake though. I'm now looking forward to the Suicide Squad movie. I'm kinda annoyed that they aren't including ragdoll or some of the Secret six characters. Maybe they will have a secret six movie. That would be awesome.

I am tired of the argument though. It's like watching someone bang their head against a wall repeatedly for no reason. You can't force others to think like you do. It's pretty simple and it looks like most of the people you are arguing with agree with you. So, what is the point?

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/gl76.htm

Have a Green Lantern panel.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#23268: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:54:01 AM

[up][up][up]You could say the same about new characters, the way they sell.

(Kamala Khan excluded, of course, but she's a serious outlier.)

[up][up]Deadpool is also, notably, white.

As was Wolverine when he exploded in the eighties.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:55:36 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23269: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:55:33 AM

What makes him popular isn't that he's white, what makes him popular is how memetic he is.

He's a character type comicdom doesn't give black characters, generally, and is developed more than black characters tend to be. Which is the major problem here.

edited 5th Dec '14 9:59:48 AM by KnownUnknown

Mr.Didact Keep Hope Alive from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Naked on a bearskin rug, playing the saxophone
Keep Hope Alive
#23270: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:58:16 AM

It's not about Wonder Woman being Israeli. It's about her being played by someone who could be convincingly Mediterranean. Because, I'm sorry most Greek people DO NOT look like Wonder Woman or the British people who usually play the Greeks in movies tongue Same can be said of Aquaman who depending on the version can be closely tied to Greek mythology. And Black Adam who comes from the Middle East and should definitely not look white.

Stand Fast, Stand Strong, Stand Together
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#23271: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:59:15 AM

The problem with new characters(in comics) is that they need to sell. In X-Men this works because tons of new characters can show up at a school without needing to carry the title since you already have Cyclops/Logan/Storm/Kitty as the reason people buy the book. Later these characters can be incorporated into new teams to see if people like them enought to read books about them. If it doesn't work the team fades into the background and shows up as supporting cast in other books down the line.

For other teams like the Avengers it's harder to justify all new heroes since they are supposed to be the best and most important team on the planet(which is why 80% of all heroes are ex-Avengers...). There was an idea about creating a school for super powered kids that aren't mutants to introduce new heroes into the universe but IIRC it had bad sales and was cancelled.

Young Avengers(both old and new) pulled out all the stops to get people to want to read about the cast but none of the characters got a solo title after it ended(Hawkeye got a book along with the older Hawkeye and Loki was already famous enough to hold a book).

The general public doesn't want to read about "Kid with lightning powers" they want to read about Thor killing ice giants with a hammer. Thus it's easier to replace old heroes with new characters taking up their mantle for a year before they are killed and the older hero comes back and avenges the younger hero.

Tl;dr: Old sells better than new.

I think I'm going to make a list of the current books Marvel are making and what heroes are in them.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#23272: Dec 5th 2014 at 9:59:52 AM

I find it really frustrating when people argue against "diversity for diversity's sake" as if there's any other way to do it at this point. It basically boils down to "they shouldn't make POC or female or LGBT characters unless there's a reason to" so... What's the reason for making a character white, straight or male?

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23273: Dec 5th 2014 at 10:01:25 AM

I was using Deadpool as an example of a "new superhero climbing his way to the top" in popularity terms, him being white is incidental to that example. Even because, as mentioned above, he looks like a walking tumor if it passed through a blender while being set on fire, so he's not exactly Captain Anglo-Saxon here.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
lackofsense Since: Jan, 2013
#23274: Dec 5th 2014 at 10:01:41 AM

I'm talking about someone arguing that you have to alter the race of a character just because there aren't enough of one race or another. I'm not a fan of tokanism. I find it grossly offensive. I think a character in film can be race lifted on the merits of the actor's performance. Which is what happened in the Fantastic Four movie that is coming out soon.

I think Will Smith as Deadshot sounds interesting. I think he will do a good job. Nobody in this thread so far has said that diversity among the leads is a bad thing, and yet a few posters are quite vehement that each new role must contain a nonwhite or some kind of war is lost.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#23275: Dec 5th 2014 at 10:03:57 AM

There's a difference between tokenism and suggesting that, maybe, it'd be nice for the ratio of white characters to POC not be 5:1.

Like, I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."

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