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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dsneybuf (Not-So-Newbie)
#23001: Nov 30th 2014 at 1:11:59 PM

Do I seem like the only Troper who thinks The Winter Soldier fell victim to Hype Backlash? Sure, I found the action scenes amazing, and could understand people who appreciate the fact that it doesn't have as much kitsch as Captain America: The First Avenger (even though I consider that my favorite MCU movie in which a Iron Man doesn't play a starring role). However, after only one viewing, I don't get why its most rabid fans think it rises above a standard good vs. evil story.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#23002: Nov 30th 2014 at 1:30:55 PM

It's one of my favorite movies of all time, actually. Top 20, at least. I admit I haven't seen all the classics, but I have seen some. I find that the movie worked beyond the well done action. The plot sequences seemed to flow very well, the characters were too the point and well done, it was shot well, etc. But if it's not for you, it's not for you.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23003: Nov 30th 2014 at 2:20:04 PM

A big part of why it's so memorable it's its approach to He Who Fights Monsters and such themes.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#23004: Nov 30th 2014 at 3:00:14 PM

Kind of?

I don't know, maybe it's abnormal for movies to portray the concept of "The ends justify the means," as an ultimately evil notion, but shadowy government operations trying to "do what is necessary" turning out to be Evil All Along while the morally upstanding heroes who would never go to such extremes or cross such lines call them out, clean up their mess, and save the world is pretty much a comic book staple. Like, every superhero's done that at least five times.

Superhero stories, even the less black-and-white Marvel ones, tend to be pretty unanimous on the idea that He Who Fights Monsters is a Supervillain, end of story. For reference, see the backlash on Iron Man post-Civil War. I can't say if this is a new concept for filmmaking, but it's old hat for superheroes. Winter Soldier was a great movie for a lot of reasons, but it wasn't exactly revolutionary in its approach to S.H.I.E.L.D.'s behavior.

edited 30th Nov '14 3:03:18 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23005: Nov 30th 2014 at 3:21:22 PM

The story isn't exactly revolutionary, but it's extremely timely, and Cap is a good character to experience it through.

swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#23006: Nov 30th 2014 at 5:49:56 PM

I love both Captain America movies (yeah, the first one is on place four of my favourite MCU movies, directly behind the Avengers), because they are both so political. The first one was very much about propaganda vs. reality and what are the right reasons to go to war (it looses the theme in the second half because they had to get Cap in the present). The second one tackles themes like "what does a soldier after the war", "what does war cost the individual" and naturally "does the end justify the means".

Sure all this themes have been done before, but not exactly in the superhero movie, which are usually not particularly political. Also it was rarely done that poignant.

I think a big part why those movies work is because Cap is the embodiment of the ideals America was built on - but America, especially modern America, constantly falls short to those ideals. That's why it is so interesting to see Cap interact with Tony, who is pretty much a product of our modern hedonistic society, or Natasha, who is so deep in the spy world that she has no ideals at all aside from atoning for her sins. But she doesn't really believe in anything otherwise.

In addition especially the theme of "who is watching the watcher" is very current.

Add to this that The Winter Soldier is perfectly paced, addresses personal tragedy as well as political themes and has some really bad-ass action scene, plus, a male and a female lead who are at no point romantically involved, and you have a mix for the win.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#23007: Nov 30th 2014 at 7:45:39 PM

Can't really suffer from hype backlash when I saw the film not too long after its release. I mean, that would imply that I was immersed in all the hype to begin with. I was just excited to see a new Cap movie and got more than I bargained for.

I have seen the praise and fro my perspective it's well earned but if i hadn't seen the movie until now then I would probably be tired of everyone saying how great it is be soured on it.

It's all about timing.

The Blog The Art
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#23008: Nov 30th 2014 at 7:48:42 PM

I watched it in theater and I watched in on DVD and I think it held up nicely.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
dsneybuf (Not-So-Newbie)
#23009: Nov 30th 2014 at 9:49:32 PM

[up][up]I saw The Winter Soldier 15 days after its North American release date. Before then, it already ranked as my most anticipated movie of 2014, and quite a few people told me after watching it to expect not just a good time, but the greatest Marvel Studios movie ever. However, I ended up instead deeming it a worthy addition to my top five of the eight MCU pictures I had seen by then-I thought it felt more ambitious than my three least favorites, but I also had a harder time staying connected with the characters than I did watching the four that outranked it (and the film that eventually knocked it out of the top 5, Guardians of the Galaxy).

edited 30th Nov '14 10:00:32 PM by dsneybuf

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#23010: Nov 30th 2014 at 10:54:09 PM

Ok. I have to ask, what sins Loki is refering to black widow? he was pretty dramatic about it and black widow is shock a little, what is so bad that she need to atone?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#23011: Nov 30th 2014 at 10:54:51 PM

All the people she killed as a spy, for both the Russians, and SHIELD.

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#23012: Nov 30th 2014 at 11:13:58 PM

She set a hospital on fire and did something unpleasant to a little girl to get at her father.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#23013: Nov 30th 2014 at 11:15:09 PM

And also, she kicked a puppy. Actually, several puppies.

edited 30th Nov '14 11:20:34 PM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
GaryCXJk Wants Captain N for SSBU Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Wants Captain N for SSBU
#23014: Nov 30th 2014 at 11:19:01 PM

I also believe she ate a taco on Thursday.

Signatures are for lamers.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#23015: Nov 30th 2014 at 11:19:01 PM

@Unknowing, She was a Russian assassin and spy, use your imagination. Anything we can imagine personally will always be ten times worse than whatever they could provide for us directly.

The Blog The Art
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#23016: Nov 30th 2014 at 11:22:53 PM

Loki actually directly refers to three events. The Hospital fire, Sao Paolo and Drakov's daughter.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#23017: Dec 1st 2014 at 7:22:53 AM

When writing a protagonist seeking atonement for grievous ills, sometimes it's best to not show those ills in great detail, lest you risk making the protagonist impossible to sympathize with. There is a fine line between audience reactions of "This person has done bad things but I want to see them rise above," and "I don't care what happens to this person. This person is scum and I hope they die."

Ultimately, writing a redemption arc is asking the audience to empathize with victimizer over victim, and that requires a very delicate hand to make work. It's one of the easiest things in storytelling to screw up.

edited 1st Dec '14 7:27:54 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#23018: Dec 1st 2014 at 8:19:37 AM

[up] That's why Agent of Shield is currently so interesting...either they go the opposite route, or they intend to really examine the topic from all angles this time around.

Interestingly, though, the movies are as light on excuses for Natasha as they are on details about what she did...aside from mentioning how young she was when she became a spy, they didn't really show much about her background so far, did they?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#23019: Dec 1st 2014 at 8:20:47 AM

If anything, they went the opposite route with her redemption arc and deflated it. Winter Soldier has her coming to the conclusion that she just traded being a remorseless killer for one person, for being a remorseless killer for another.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#23020: Dec 1st 2014 at 9:04:36 AM

[up] I am not sure if you can compare it...whatever she did before she joined Shield must have been much worse in order for her to think that Shield was the "decent" option. I think if they had requested something from her which was along the same line, she would have bailed out. Plus, not everything she did for Shield was automatically bad...the terrifying thing is that there might have been missions which were. And that it was most likely someone from shield who send the Winter Soldier after her the first time.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#23022: Dec 1st 2014 at 10:40:30 AM

Ever since Winter Soldier I've had the idea that certain SHIELD higher-ups (if Fury wasn't directly involved, since this admittedly seems like something he would do) might have even allowed her to join in the first place because they intended to invite her to join HYDRA more officially - a la Ward or Garrett (since it's almost certain that she unknowingly did work to further HYDRA before she even joined SHIELD), but then scrapped those plans after seeing how fixated on redeeming herself she was and instead kept her in the dark like Coulson and Barton.

This week on "things Barton might have been doing during Winter Soldier:" accidentally tripped over an interdimensional portal, and spent a month in Star City having an archery battle with Oliver Queen.

edited 1st Dec '14 10:54:41 AM by KnownUnknown

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#23023: Dec 1st 2014 at 10:45:07 AM

On Black Widow: we know she lit at least one hospital on fire (presumably one of those catholic ones with lots of nuns and cancer patients) and it's implied she tortured a little girl to intimidate her father into complying with either the KGB or a private party.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
kalel94 Rascal King from Dragonstone Since: Feb, 2011
Rascal King
#23024: Dec 1st 2014 at 12:07:44 PM

Those are some pretty big leaps for things that were specifically meant to be ambiguous.

The last hurrah? Nah, I'd do it again.
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#23025: Dec 1st 2014 at 12:29:57 PM

Loki's line goes "Can you wipe out so much red? Sao Paolo? The hospital fire? Drakov's daughter?"

So we have no idea what happened in Sao Paolo but it was definitely unpleasant. Black Widow set a hospital on fire. Drakov's daughter when combined with her earlier line "I didn't care who I used it for... or on..." implies she did something interrogaty torturish on Drakov's daughter.

The nuns and cancer patients was just me being a smarmy asshat.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins

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