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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145501: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:28:48 AM

[up] *stares at Fat Thor from Endgame*

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145502: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:29:09 AM

In fairness I think that was more Downey not wanting to “go there” for his acting since the guy is a recovering alcoholic himself.

It hit too close to home for the poor guy.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 31st 2022 at 11:29:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#145503: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:32:04 AM

Jessica Jones was a raging alcoholic and the Netflix-verse was generally pretty good about making it clear that she had a problem and refused to acknowledge it, which was part of a greater pattern of Jess refusing to take responsibility for her mental health.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#145504: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:33:29 AM

I thought that basically everyone hated how big Peter's supporting cast was, and that they really wished he was on his own again like before? Isn't that how we got here?

Very rarely is "everyone" everyone. Just the people who don't like what is currently happening are often the loudest.

I've never seen much complaining about MJ or Ned as his supporting cast, mostly just one Tony/Happy's prominence and the amount of resources they give Pete.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 31st 2022 at 8:07:07 PM

uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#145505: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:38:07 AM

I wouldnt exactly call fat Thor a serious tackling of alcoholism.

Jessica Jones I deffinitly would, though the Netflix shows always dealt with way darker subject matters then the movies.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jul 31st 2022 at 8:39:09 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#145506: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:38:51 AM

Yeah, I have seen a lot of criticism that the Spider-Man movies need to stop relying so heavily on guest characters - especially Tony Stark. But the only criticisms I've seen of Zendaya's MJ were people upset that she "isn't a redhead"; A criticism that I'm pretty sure is just a race-lifting complaint wearing the Trenchcoat of Deniability.

Ned has been criticized for being Miles Morales's best friend Ganke Lee in all but name, swiped from him to give to Peter. He has absolutely nothing to do with Ned Leeds and it feels disingenuous to name him that, as if we can't all see what they did here.

But I don't think I've seen many arguments that the Spider-Man movies need to dump Ned, MJ, and Aunt May. These are not the characters that people are talking about when they complain about reference bloat.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2022 at 11:41:30 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
diddyknux Straw Hat Robin (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Straw Hat Robin
#145507: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:42:20 AM

I actually am intrigued by the "MJ gets the symbiote" idea that someone floated. Since the symbiotes consciousness are connected, that could be a way for her to remember Peter. And the symbiote could use that to propel her anger.

..Actually, I'm not so sure, that seems like it would be really easy for writers to fumble character motivation like that.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145508: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:52:08 AM

My issue with Peter's supporting cast is more just I find the extra students annoying.

Like a big aspect of the first 2 films is the emphasis how Peter is apart of a magnet school but all that amounted to is him being surrounded by a bunch of extras. Also a case of Disney's performative representation as the marketing would routinely brag about how diverse the students are only to do next to nothing with them in the actual film proper.

FFH was pretty bad about it as Peter was stuck an a whole field trip with a bunch of classmates and it didn't do much to develop any of them in any interesting ways aside from that guy who was Peter's romantic rival and that girl who dated Ned for the trip, both very shallow characters.

Its why I find NWH a vast improvement in this regard for completely jettisoning the extra fluff.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 31st 2022 at 11:53:38 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145509: Jul 31st 2022 at 11:56:53 AM

I wouldn't exactly call fat Thor a serious tackling of alcoholism.

I disagree. Sure, it might not be to the extent that Jessica Jones seemingly went to (I haven't watched the show yet, so I can't judge), but I thought that seeing Thor fall to such a low, and having to bring himself back to who he was through talking to someone is very important, and the fact that he still tries to do the right thing despite being horribly out of shape helps in that regard.

I do agree that playing some of the humor up did get a little frustrating, but overall I felt I was looking at those moments more from a sympathetic point of view, since it felt less about the humor and more to show off how pitiful Thor became in those five years.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Cross (Don’t ask)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145511: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:03:28 PM

I don't know maybe have him befriend Hobbie Brown or Cindy Moon, I think the latter was confirmed to be a student at the school.

Not saying set em up to be Prowler and Silk for a future movie but maybe have Peter develop some friendships or interactions beyond the only 2 people he associates on a regular basis.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145512: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:11:03 PM

I mean, it's not like Peters 2 or 3 had too many friends at school either...

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#145513: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:15:18 PM

Hobie would be a good one, especially if Peter wound up working a manual labor or trade job.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#145514: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:22:37 PM

So what I hear is that Peter has too many friends and not enough friends, and those friends get too much and too little attention from the story. Got it. Nice to know fans are as consistent as always.

Pencil me in as firmly in the "not what I care about" camp: I love Peter's relationships but I'm most invested in him and his happiness, and when that keeps getting yanked away I feel let down. I'm willing to accept that he's going to get beat down by the universe because that's how Spider-Man works, but he needs to be able to achieve some lasting victories from time to time or I'm going to get bored and stop caring.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 31st 2022 at 3:24:29 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145515: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:30:20 PM

I'm personally on the side of Peter having more friends (particularly in this huge, sprawling universe), I just thought it was strange that I saw a lot of complaints about how Peter always had help from people versus always going it alone, only for new complaints to arise about how Peter no longer has anyone to interact with now that he doesn't have it anymore.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#145516: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:33:16 PM

And many people ignore that he stopped the Vulture without the tech suit.

The list:

  • Shocker: With help of Ned.
  • Vulture: Alone and techless.
  • Mysterio: Alone but with tech.
  • Sandman, Lizard and Electro: With help.
  • Green Goblin: Alone.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 31st 2022 at 12:36:04 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#145517: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:36:14 PM

I'm ok with Peter having a lot of friends.

He's worked with so many heroes. He's got connections to the FF, the Avengers, the X-men, the New Warriors, has probably been a Defender (because damn near everybody from before maybe the late 2000s has been one), and is one of the more prominent Street Level heroes.

Now, if you're talking non-hero friends, he's gone back on forth on that. A lot of them have a tendency to die, and the ones who don't, he gets his marriage to them retconned.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#145518: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:37:20 PM

Spider-Man is what I call a Moral Hero*. He's someone who wins by being a fundamentally good person rather than by punching people until they stop moving. Therefore, the stories he's in will always challenge his morality in some way, such as by forcing him to struggle with the necessity of killing, having him rely too much on technology over his abilities, lean on a patron of dubious ethics, and so on.

Part of being a moral hero is learning when to rely on the people close to you. If the lesson that the universe tries to teach him is that you should never trust your friends and family because they're going to get killed if you do, that undermines the message that Peter is part of his community. It tells him that he should go it alone, struggling eternally against the darkness with no hope of surcease or reward, and that gets very bleak very fast.

Put simply, I don't like bleak Spidey. I like hopeful Spidey.

* Other categories include the Power Hero, who overpowers the opposition; the Science Hero, who uses tech to address problems; and the Guile Hero, who outsmarts and outthinks their opponents. These categories can overlap to some extent, but we can classify Hulk and Thor as Power Heroes, Tony Stark as a Science Hero, and Steven Strange as a Guile Hero.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 31st 2022 at 3:39:09 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#145519: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:37:59 PM

I have said before and I will say it again. I dislike the way they ended No Way Home. I liked that Peter had more friends here because it was a nice change of pace and just getting rid some of the best romance and bromance dynamics from the MCU is not fixing the problem of him having to much resources due to Stark. There are a million better ways to get rid of that problem with out getting rid of his supporting cast.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#145520: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:38:06 PM

"he gets his marriage to them retconned"

I always hated that, because the writers didn't just get them divorced, they didn't need a cosmic retcon.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145521: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:39:03 PM

They didn't get him divorced because divorce "would age him"

And its not like divorces at a young age are impossible if you marry or elope with someone impulsively

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 31st 2022 at 12:40:07 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#145522: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:39:41 PM

I would rather that MCU Peter keeps his supporting cast, they definitely were quite fun, though I see why the reset was done to get back to Spider-Man as a working class hero instead of a billionaire’s trust fund kid.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 31st 2022 at 12:40:20 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#145523: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:40:38 PM

get back to Spider-Man as a working class hero instead of a billionaire’s trust fund kid.

That I can accept, but it comes at the cost of his friends and family, which is... not really worth it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#145524: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:40:49 PM

@mathewwayne: It's only weird if it's the same people decrying him with friends and without friends and even then it's fair to critique the execution of something you wanted.

Eta: as to the comics they tried to divorce/separate them in jms run before going cosmic retcon on it. They even killed off MJ in I think John Burne's reboot, blowing up the plane she was on but eventually undid it by fan demand.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 31st 2022 at 8:43:28 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145525: Jul 31st 2022 at 12:44:08 PM

Eh, fair enough

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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