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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145201: Jul 26th 2022 at 1:47:35 PM

The VFX industry has been a utter nightmare for a few decades now. A friend of mine actually did minor work in the VFX of Kingsman (the first one, I believe) and says he absolutely despised the experience, being paid little for a very-tight-schedule work and receiving no credit in the finished product. The cultural perception (in some sense enforced or tactictly endorsed by many in Hollywood) that CGI "isn't real artistry" doesn't really help anybody (how many times have you heard someone disparaging CGI contrasted to the beauty of practical effects?).

There are in fact several documentaries that have been made to explore this. There's one from 2013 called Life after Pi about how the CGI company that did Life of Pi collapsed under financial strain in spite of the movie (and their work) being acclaimed and there's a more recent one (2017) called Hollywood's Greatest Trick about the industry as a whole. Even the more positive documentaries, like Industrial Light and Magic - Creating the Impossible still tend to have the "it's a very hard industry to work on" undertone (in that case in particular, the subtext is that ILM was lucky that George Lucas had such a intense passion for practical effects as an artform rather than a industrial business).

Edited by Gaon on Jul 26th 2022 at 1:48:17 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#145202: Jul 26th 2022 at 2:25:49 PM

Yeah, my understanding is that, as with the issue regarding contract workers in the video game industry, as problematic as it is, Marvel is sadly far from unique in its poor treatment of VFX studios, just the most infamous (Paramount did something very similar after the Sonic design debacle, even with the delay).

It's just that its complete dominance over the media landscape means it's more likely than not to be responsible through sheer volume, and simultaneous the least incentivized to do something about it due to its continued success. Likewise the studio is spreading itself thin with so many projects at once and not willing to upscale production to match the logistics of such bloat.

As mentioned, another issue is indecisiveness, which is usually indicative of poor management, or too much hierarchal organization obstructing efficiency.

To provide a counterpoint, studios like Ufotable are able to produce very high-quality animation because of a mix of having an in-house CG division who can adapt quickly to their demands, and because the production pipeline being solid and communicative enough that the company can trust the acquired experience of its long-term staffers to get the job done, with time to spare to polish their work. It also means they don't need to deal with the paradox of having spend additional money outsourcing to other companies which often have high turnover while also pennypinching at the expense of the final product's quality and employee wellbeing.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 26th 2022 at 6:21:25 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145203: Jul 26th 2022 at 2:41:51 PM

(Paramount did something very similar after the Sonic design debacle, even with the delay).

That case was a microcosm of many of the problems addressed here as the VFX crew essentially got punished for what was essentially a bad creative decision out of their hands. People actually applauded Paramount's decision to crunch the crew into fixing the design and to this day this entire story became basically a footnote.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
"To watch it all burn."
#145204: Jul 26th 2022 at 3:11:46 PM

And Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars will be 6 months apart... I'm a fan of the MCU, but I really hope Marvel fixes the problem.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#145205: Jul 26th 2022 at 3:20:40 PM

[up][up] Didn't stop the VFX studio itself from going bankrupt though.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jul 26th 2022 at 3:20:47 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#145206: Jul 26th 2022 at 8:43:03 PM

Said this the other day but it must suck to be a VFX artist, you're worked like a dog for little to no recognition while you've also got every asshole saying that you're the cancer that's killing movies.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#145207: Jul 26th 2022 at 11:03:27 PM

All you ever hear about the FX / VFX industry is that they get no respect and are taken advantage of. It really sucks that nothing's really changing even though people have been getting increasingly conscious about this shit.

At this point a massive VFX strike seems inevitable, a la the big writer's strike a few years ago.

Edit: Shit, the writers' strike was over a decade ago. Damn, I feel old.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2022 at 11:04:21 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#145208: Jul 26th 2022 at 11:20:55 PM

If you're thinking of a recent strike, it might have been the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees strike.

SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145209: Jul 27th 2022 at 12:40:28 AM

On a podcast by a former VFX worker said that a good way to improve the VFX industry would be for all the houses to agree not to take a 10 or 5% loss or cut. I don't know if that's the same as Unionization.

Still I do feel bad when people mock VFX artist work because they make pretty amazing stuff on a hard deadline. It's insulting when you have been overworked and then some guy on the street comes to you and says " You ruined the movie with your bad effects."

Sincerely S Awatching.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145210: Jul 27th 2022 at 12:41:51 AM

Its prolly even worse when your boss gets in on it, like when Taika Waititi made fun of his VHX team.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145211: Jul 27th 2022 at 12:47:42 AM

[up]True, but hurts either way.

Sincerely S Awatching.
uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#145212: Jul 27th 2022 at 3:38:08 AM

Sadly, with how overstuffed Marvel Studios release scedule for the next years is, this will probably only get worse.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jul 27th 2022 at 12:38:33 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145213: Jul 27th 2022 at 4:02:11 AM

See this is actual oversaturation of movies

There's too much shit being made and not enough people to make so the result is everyone is overworked and barely paid

A fucking shame, its like what the anime industry is going through where too much anime is being made but there's not enough studios to make them

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#145214: Jul 27th 2022 at 5:18:49 AM

There's more than enough money going into the production of these films to pay artists well. It's past absurd that they don't.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145215: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:42:30 AM

Huh with Thunderbolts officially announced, I really hope we see Zemo decked out in his Citizen V costume

It looks so cool

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/citizen_v.jpeg

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/citizen_v_2.jpg

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#145216: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:44:27 AM

Mask is cool,everthing else about his costume is eh

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#145217: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:46:15 AM

I'm thinking it being an kind ott Captain America style thing was the point? Is he fighting knock off Zemos there for extra irony?

Though Nowadays people would probably think it was rip-off of Homelander from The Boys.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145218: Jul 27th 2022 at 6:50:17 AM

There's something amusing in how the former Nazi decided to pick a patriotic based super identity.

Granted it was prolly a gesture intended to insult Cap.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 27th 2022 at 6:50:30 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#145219: Jul 27th 2022 at 8:18:55 AM

Given the issues with fascism that America is facing today, dressing a literal Nazi in nationalist American regalia is alarmingly poignant.

That said, I'd have to come down on the side of, "Let's not." MCU Zemo isn't a Nazi, first and foremost, so the effect would be totally muted. But also, I'm kinda worried about Zemo. Captain Falcon and Bucky already reinvented him as a rich, smooth-talking antihero who (gravelly voice) does what must be done to eliminate evil and memetically gets down on the dance floor.

I am genuinely concerned that Zemo may become next-gen Loki. If he was as much of a slimy monster as his comic counterpart, then by all means, the meaningful irony of dressing him in Captain America-esque attire would come across. But if you dress Sexy Rich Antihero Zemo in Captain America clothes, the fandom will take it sincerely.

If we could. Like. Not turn Baron Fucking Zemo into a Leather Pants Tumblr Sexyman who "was right all along!", that'd be great, thanks. I desperately hope that this movie remembers that Zemo is the villain of Thunderbolts, not the star.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 27th 2022 at 8:21:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145220: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:00:45 AM

Shame we can't get Moonstone's famous speech especially since... as said he's not a Nazi here

"Let me EXPLAIN something, Zemo. Let me tell you why I undermined your leadership at every turn. I've got a pretty simple philosophy of life. You want to hear it? It's this: Don't. Get. CAUGHT! Oh, I was stupid at first - I thought my powers made me invincible...so I ended up getting a record, getting caught. I was willing to ride it out, serve my sentence and start anew - but you press-ganged me into your scheme, and there went that. Still, it was a good scheme - posing as heroes - and we made it WORK. We had it all - public support, adulation - the perfect cover to pull any NUMBER of scams - and you went and blew it over just ONE! Who CARES about ruling the world?! Who wants to do that much WORK?! We could have run this con out for YEARS before it got old! But no, you couldn't be smart - not when you could play Hitler like your idiot father!"

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145221: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:05:55 AM

The only thing I could see for using Zemo in the future ( as of now) would be him attempting to lead an Anti-superhuman crusade.

Sincerely S Awatching.
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#145222: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:26:52 AM

I can't possibly imagine the MCU incarnation of Zemo dressing as a superhero. It goes against everything we've learned about the character. I mean, they certainly could do the legwork to find a justification, but as it stands, it's nothing I could personally picture.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#145223: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:35:46 AM

MCU Zemo has been characterized as, if nothing else, a extreme pragmatist. If he dresses up as a superhero with the express purpose of sabotaging superheroes as a concept it can make perfect sense.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#145224: Jul 27th 2022 at 9:39:32 AM

It looks so cool

Agreed. And after all these years I still love that introduction to the team.

And yeah, while i'd love to see Zemo as a superhero or classic supervillain, that... does kinda clashes with what has already been established about that take on the character. At the very least in Falcon and Winter Soldier they did remember that by having him smash the super-soldier vials.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#145225: Jul 27th 2022 at 12:42:11 PM

I think the difference between Zemo and Loki is that while Loki usually does things for shits and giggles and only really started to reform once he started to face consequences for his actions, Zemo doesn't do anything without a very clear purpose and only does what he needs to do and nothing more. He was way more sympathetic than Loki from the start and is still much less self-serving and is mostly just a man willing to do anything to dismantle what he sees as an inherently unjust, corrupt, and abusive power structure.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Jul 27th 2022 at 12:43:42 PM


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