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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144726: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:17:44 PM

I misremembered it was Everything happens because "Why not?" Not "just because". Apologies.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144727: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:19:09 PM

Eh, I’ve got no problem with stories transitioning from monarchies to democracies. If anything I think that democracy deserves its time to shine because it feels like in media it’s so often characterized as useless bureaucracy while stories about lone monarchs get to be shining heroes who fix everything. And when collective democracy is constantly depicted as unable to right the ship and only lone maverick heroes save the day (*coughs in Star Wars*)… well, no wonder some of these stories attract the unpleasant fans.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144728: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:19:20 PM

In fairness: Comics Tony had help building Murderbot Thortron. Reed Richards and Skrull Pym

Skrull Pym apparently died and was replaced multiple times and also the “Secret” Invasion was a catastrophe that dipped Skrull population levels to unprecedented lows. So let’s say he took his karmic punishment

And Tony got punished over and over and over, the scapegoat of the entire event

Reed practically got nothing.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144729: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:20:39 PM

All things considering how depressive the current Marvel king stories are, I wouldn't mind more glorious king stuff.

Like honestly what does it matter if its a monarchy, its fiction, its not even based on a real setting, as long as its not a fascist state who cares if the government system isn't strictly a democracy.

And I don't even think most people really care about it that much. People like Black Panther because he's a king superhero same way people love how say Lord of the Rings ends in Aragorn being crowned king of Gondor.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144730: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:21:55 PM

How do you feel about Hulkling becoming the Grand Benevolent Emperor of Two Glorious Empires

That’s like being at least two kings, if not more

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144731: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:22:54 PM

It's five years later and no-one cares because half of everyone is dead. They have bigger problems. Also, Tony still cares, and the first thing he does after being rescued is chew Steve out over every grievance from Civil War onwards and then collapse.

Did you miss me explictly complain about that? Tony gets his licks in and then forgives Steve later. So apparently according to Endgame Tony was right all along.

Regardless setting up that character stuff and then ignoring so long the plot has moved on so you don't have to address in depth is the flaw I am talking about. You can't excuse it be reiterating what I am saying.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 2:23:21 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144732: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:24:09 PM

No, Steve was right all along. Tony comes to him and apologizes. I feel like we watched different movies. Characters are allowed to move on from past plot points eventually, but you'll also note that by the end of Endgame, Tony is dead and Steve is retired. The hatchet is well and truly buried by that point.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:25:08 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144733: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:24:15 PM

[up][up][up] That was pretty cool.

Especially since hey we have a gay king and his husband is the official royal consort.

Pretty high-concept stuff there, ya gotta love it.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:24:23 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#144734: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:25:48 PM

there was an opportunity for Quill to kill Gamora to stop Thanos from learning the location of the Soul Stone and that would also have stopped him.

Uh...what? He did pull the trigger. Quill gets a lot of crap, some of it legitimate, some of it not, but when it came down to it, he did pull the trigger. That failed because Thanos had the reality stone, but at that point they were doomed regardless.

They entirely dodge the moment of sacrifice when it might have helped, that is, before they all decide to go anywhere near Thanos. If she'd died then, he would have had a real problem (except, see below).

Likewise, much though I like to rag on Cap's refusal to sacrifice Vision, it ends up not mattering. Even if they'd acted instantly, all that would have changed is how far back Thanos would have had to turn the clock. The key stone was always Time, which is why I remain utterly baffled how he seems to have almost entirely avoided any fan backlash (at least in the circles I run in).

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#144735: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:26:19 PM

If I may give my opinion on the matter: to me it did feel like the Avengers being divided didn't help, but... at the same time it didn't feel like there was that much impact. Because honestly they weren't that divided in the end. War Machine, Wanda and Vision ended up both working with Cap despite Vision and Rhodes having been on Tony's side - in fact the wide majority of the Avengers still worked together to try pushing Thanos back. Only ones who weren't gathered with Cap's side were Tony, Strange (who had not been involved in either Avengers or Civil War anyway) and Spidey - and that wasn't because they were at odd with the others, they just happened to have been dragged in space. Heck, Tony was about to begrudgingly call Cap anyway on Bruce's insistance, and only got stopped from doing it because Ebony Maw arrived. And the Avengers generally spend time away from each other in-between movies so they could very well have been separated without being at odd. Even the friggin' Sokovia Accords end up moot because their only pay off is General Ross briefly trying to get Cap's side arrested only to be told to piss off.

I also feel there's a bit of a dissonance because Civil War ended with that message from Cap to Tony saying "Eh, no hard feelings, call me if you ever need me," like to reassure us that everything is hunky dorey - only for Infinity War to start with Banner asking Tony to do just that, and Tony's like "nope, we don't like one another anymore."

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144736: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:29:43 PM

No, Steve was right all along. Tony comes to him and apologizes. I feel like we watched different movies.

This is one point among many I made but okay.

Tony never apologises or admits he was wrong to Steve. He returns the shield and says he doesn't want to hold on to resentment because it's corrossive and he hates it.

It's certainly a peace offering but it's not necessarily an apology or admission of fault.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144737: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:33:38 PM

[up][up][up] It's true that the Reality Stone makes Quill's choice to kill Gamora moot, but the fact that they bring the one person who could tell Thanos where the Soul Stone is to a place they know he is likely to be is just nuts.

As for the Mind Stone, Thanos is able to use the Time Stone to reconstruct it because he knows exactly when and where it was destroyed. This might have been a lot more difficult had it happened before he even got to Earth.

Strange's decision to give Thanos the Time Stone is another of those key moments that only really makes sense Doylistically. If we look at it from a Watsonian perspective it makes all of the other struggles of the Avengers at least somewhat moot. I'll grant that, but it doesn't change the other things we're talking about.

Sure, Thanos may have found other ways to get the Soul Stone and the Mind Stone, but that he got them in the specific ways he did is due to the failings of the heroes.


[up][up]

I also feel there's a bit of a dissonance because Civil War ended with that message from Cap to Tony saying "Eh, no hard feelings, call me if you ever need me," like to reassure us that everything is hunky dorey - only for Infinity War to start with Banner asking Tony to do just that, and Tony's like "nope, we don't like one another anymore."

That's not inconsistent. Steve is ready to forgive Tony, but Tony's not willing to forgive Steve.

Even as noted [up] here, they never fully make up, and I accept that correction. The feud only ends when Tony dies and Steve gives up his shield. So it does have long-lasting repercussions.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:34:10 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#144738: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:34:03 PM

[up][up]I'll say, my read was that neither of them apologized, because neither of them believe they were wrong, but both wanted the fight to be over and took the excuse when it came.

[up]I mean, I see no basis to believe that on the Time Stone? Amongst other things, they appear throughout recorded history (which is how he knows about them at all). Going to a time they're available and stealing them, seems entirely within the scope of his power (as far as he knows and putting aside the TVA, which creates its own set of problems here).

This is one of many reasons why I wish they would kill time travel as part of the story. It always turns everything into 'oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.'

ETA:[down]Note, I edited in the up arrow after he posted, so no one should assume he agrees with my response to Fighteer as well.

Edited by ECD on Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:37:38 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144739: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:35:44 PM

[up] i'd agree with that.

Eta: thanks for that down note. My agreement was directed at the first paragrath in regards to neither steve nor tony apologising. Not read the rest yet.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 2:40:39 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144740: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:39:13 PM

Ya know we got some pretty good stuff today.

I remember we were talking about how we need more cartoons and some none-MCU products.

So we're getting that at least.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144741: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:42:26 PM

[up][up][up]If we follow that logic, why doesn't Strange use time travel to, as it is so eloquently phrased, kill Thanos as a baby? Other than the "time travel creates branching realities" thing, obviously. Or, why doesn't Thanos use the Time Stone once he has it to pluck the Mind Stone from an alternate timeline*?

I guess it does demonstrate why any form of time travel (other than a Stable Time Loop) can sap the narrative weight from a story in much the same way as resurrection, clones, and multiverses. But this can has been opened and the MCU has to deal with it somehow.

*The Watsonian answer is that the events as depicted by the MCU are the exact ones that are meant to happen according to the TVA's enforcement of the timelines, but that just adds another layer to the mess.

It brings me back to one of my original points: sometimes you just have to relax and enjoy the show, not think so hard about it that it breaks reality.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:44:47 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#144742: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:46:20 PM

[up]I'd like that, but with the stones destroyed, I don't think we're going to get it.

My personal preference, though it is just headcanon is that we basically see what the stone can do on its own. Time loop and look into the future. It's only when empowered by at least three other stones that it can actually allow you to travel backwards in time without simply creating a parallel universe (though I sort of love the notion that in one universe Thanos watches Wanda kill Vision, then just poofs out of existence from their perspective). This allows the other fights to actually matter, as he couldn't simply rewind to a time they were defenseless and take them.

[down]Ah, drat, I'd forgotten the time reversal to save Wong.

Edited by ECD on Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:49:03 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144743: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:46:45 PM

Has the time stone demonstrated more powers than just the rewind/redo stuff Strange and Thanos did. Which strange did on a very large scale at rhe end of the movie. Plus the time loop as well?

It feels like it should be capable of time travel intuitively but we've not seen it happen right?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144744: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:55:31 PM

In the MCU, we have not seen the Time Stone allow actual time travel; that is correct. It can set up time loops, rewind time to some extent, and allow looking through timelines, but that's it.

So we don't know if Thanos could, hypothetically, have pulled the same trick that the Avengers do and steal Infinity Stones from other timelines. It seems like the Stones themselves shouldn't be able to do that because then you could have multiple copies of them in one timeline at the same time. (The TVA doesn't count, obviously.)

This leads me to another belief: only the Quantum Realm's version of time travel creates branching timelines, at least directly. We see the Time Stone used several times in ways that don't do this, especially his time loop with Dormammu. In Ms. Marvel, the bangle (whatever cosmic artifact it turns out to be) is apparently able to create stable time loops without branching. So in the MCU, time travel is special cases all the way down.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:56:37 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#144745: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:04:49 PM

I wonder what Thanos's reaction would be, post-Snap, to learning about the multiverse. Sure, you wiped out half of all life in this universe, but there's also a whole bunch of branched timelines where you failed. I don't know if he'd take that calmly or catastrophically.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#144746: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:12:15 PM

With Thanos, a calm reaction would be catastrophic since he'd go on trying to find out how to make half the multiverse disappear or for it to freeze in some size or something as insane.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#144747: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:13:45 PM

He'd maybe try to re-prune things back to a single Sacred Timeline, on the logic that it's just tidier that way.

Or he'd just realize the meaninglessness of his actions in an infinite multiverse and chill out a little.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144748: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:15:22 PM

Pull an Owlman and then pull Owlman

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144749: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:20:10 PM

The thing about Thanos and the Multiverse is that there's probably a version of him in most of them, trying to do much the same thing, so he can worry about this universe and not the others. Ironically, by coming forward in time during Endgame, he left his original branching timeline behind so he would never collect the Infinity Stones in it and enact his plan.

This whole thing is a little nuts because Loki presents the multiverse as branching timelines while Multiverse of Madness presents them as entirely different realities in which not just histories diverge but also physics and mathematics. Meanwhile, we get "planes" from Moon Knight and "dimensions" from Ms. Marvel.

If there's a MCU Bible somewhere explaining the distinctions between all of these things, I'd love to see it.

Ordinarily, I'd say that the nature of the branching timelines should make Thanos' plan pointless since there must be an infinite number of them in which his plan fails, but Strange's exploration of the timelines makes it seem rather the opposite: only one in fourteen million has him lose (plus presumably the one he leaves). That's pretty good effort.

Of course, that in turn makes the heroes efforts moot, since while they saved one timeline, fourteen million were not. And then what's up with all these other multiverses where red means go and people are made of colored string? Did each of them have a Thanos, whom they presumably beat because they're all still ticking?

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 1:25:05 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#144750: Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:31:44 PM

[up] Technically MoM doesn't contradict Loki. The point of divergence could be that the formation of the universe was different to the point where, say, everything is made out of paint. Technically an altered timeline rather than another dimension, even if physics itself are what diverged.

I also hold the personal headcanon that the Sacred Timeline wasn't the only timeline in existence. The TVA is run by manpower, unlimited timecloned variants or not. It's impossible to manually destroy an infinite number of realities. I think that they just pruned every timeline that intersected with or split off from the Sacred Timeline. Also, the Sacred Timeline is much thicker than any of the branched realities we see, which implies to me that it's less one single timeline and more a collection of universes that all resulted in Kang existing as we met him.

regulation pigeon

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