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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#144701: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:16:09 PM

@slimcocer: Holy friggin' Crap, do the writer hate T'Challah or something?! Peter Parker doesn't get that much shit happening to him all at once!

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144702: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:16:12 PM

"A Nation Under Our Feet" was quite good but it's felt like Black Panther runs since have since badly mimicked its deconstruction attempts for shock value. "Avengers of the New World" was particularly absurd in this regard because it has a 'big shattering twist' of "Omg Wakanda was stolen from the native (aliens?) population" and then the heroes don't really react to that and proceed to beat the tar out of a giant Lakota-esque spirit and go back to the same old.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:17:02 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144703: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:18:21 PM

I really dislike the stuff we've heard about Black Panther 2, seems like they are throwimg a bunch of other mythoses stuff to prop up wakanda rather than concentrating on good writing for the remaining wakandans.

We've talked about it before so not to reopen that much but it seems self-fulfillomg prophecy to think people only care about T'Challa and develop the others.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144704: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:22:34 PM

Admitably there is kind of an unfair sex treatment going on. Like its been made clear that the BP writers are far more interested in writing about the women of Wakanda over T'Challa himself.

Like BP's supporting cast is mostly women now and they have been largely written as more competent, intelligent, and moral than T'Challa. Hilariously enough the writer for the Shuri issue of the upcoming Wakanda mini has stated in several posts and podcasts how much she dislikes T'Challa while at the same time loving Shuri and the Dora Milaje. I remember one post she something along the lines of "So yeah Okoye for the last 5 years was running Wakanda without problem".

And plus huge double standards. T'Challa is constantly criticized for being an authoritarian jackass but the Dora Milaje, now the Midnight Angels are given cart blanche to basically kill anyone they regard as a threat to Wakanda with maximum force. Again they invaded the Jabari Lands (technically foreign soil), killed all its leaders, and forcefully installed themselves as leaders. How is that any different from what T'Challa gets criticized for?

And then there's his relationship with Storm where he has no framed as this pathetic loser who drove away the perfect woman and is unable to get over her or move on. And every little negative thing he does is constantly put to task while her tendency to keep secrets and even steal from him is ignored so they can lob the blame for the destruction of the relationship on him entirely.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:23:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#144705: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:24:49 PM

Both the comics and the MCU have a problem with having the bad things the characters do have actual consequences. A lot of heroes in the MCU make bad decisions, but they rarely actually rebound in consequential ways.

It's not as bad in the MCU as it is in the comics (I'm still stewing about how Tony literally got Bill Foster killed in Civil War and nobody really cared, because the actually sparking point for things getting worse was supposed to be something else and they thought it was just regular C-List Fodder), but still:

Tony builds a robot that goes nuts and kills an entire planet. There are only two immediate consequences for it: the group, mostly Tony, feels bad about it, and Zemo is pissed. In response to Zemo's attack, the Avengers eat each other - as the Joker would say - and absolutely ruin their relationships with one another by making stupid decisions. Except nah, they're back together in the next movie, and the only lasting consequence is that Tony still feels bitter about it. Etc.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:25:03 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#144706: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:25:12 PM

To be fair, T'Challa vs Namor and Doom have both been things in the comics for a good while now, at least compared to the recent Wakandan imperialism storylines. Although they only started ramping up the connections fairly recently, again a symptom of the way that the comics have been increasingly been used as testbeds for storylines to consider adapting into the MCU (and to make it easier for the reverse).

Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
#144707: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:25:16 PM

While seeing Wakanda having societal issues like Cultural Posturing or conservative types within its government resist T'Challa's progressive reforms, since it adds nuance as well as present realistic drama's a country's leader would face on top of it preventing it from being a Mary Suetopia like in some adaptations, all that is going too far.

American anti-monarchy mentally aside, they shouldn't forget he is supposed to be the hero. It sounds like that whole "the 2nd Blue Beetle was a joke", thing all over again.

Edited by Avenger09 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 3:53:42 PM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144708: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:28:55 PM

[up][up][up]he only attempted to kill the planet. Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?

The lack of ongoing impact or resolution to Civil War in MCU annoys me. They never resolve their issues, Endgame just goes with Tony is right but forgives Steve because hate is toxic. Ugh.

Them being split up was hardly what gave Thanos the win in IW anyway.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 1:30:06 PM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#144709: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:31:12 PM

There's nothing to resolve. The Accords were flawed and caved when a larger threat showed up. Tony is dead and Steve retired, the story is over. I feel there's no need to retread it.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144710: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:33:00 PM

[up] not really my point. I'm not asking them to go back to it now. I'm saying they should either have done more with it in Iw or Endgame or not done it at all.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144711: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:33:29 PM

[up][up][up][up] See thats the thing, T'Challa is supposed to be the progressive reformist. He recognizes that his country has a lot of social issues so he's the one campaigning for change, the main opponent against him is the people and society of Wakanda because even a king can't change just change everything at a whim.

But writers have apparently forgotten instead making T'Challa the embodiment and catalyst of all the problems in Wakanda and its his fault for every bad thing that happens.

I'm reminded of this article by Kelly Sue De Connick at the end of her Aquaman run where she explains why she abolished the Atlantean monarchy. Basically she didn't think it was politically correct, she found the idea of a monarchy offensive to modern American values and decided to make Atlantis a democracy cause "AMERICA FUCK YEAH"

And that most likely applies to T'Challa as well. Writers see him as offensive and a problem to fix, he is the patriarchy and all that shit holding back Wakanda from becomming a "freedomland" like the US.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:33:48 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144712: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:38:30 PM

I'm going to annoy some folks again, but fuck it. All this talk of T'Challa's story in the comics is moot because we know that won't be adapted in the MCU. This is what irritates me: not speculation about what storylines might be adapted to screen based on what we already know but this random digression into "boy, wasn't Black Panther treated badly by the comic writers". (Of course, if What-If...? adapts some of these stories, it's reasonable to talk about them.)

As for the MCU and Tony, it felt like half of Phase 3 (and all of its epilogues, like Far from Home) are about dealing with how badly Tony keeps screwing up. Saying that consequences were not suffered is like... what? It's nothing but consequences.

If what we want is for civil authorities to lock up the Avengers, obviously that's not going to happen (or not for very long) because they are superheroes and have to do superhero stuff. But it's definitely meant to be understood that their lack of unity at the start of Infinity War is what allows Thanos's minions to capture Strange and wound Vision, both of which lead directly to his victory in the end.

This is another pet peeve of mine: the desire to excessively punish characters for their flaws.

But I also agree with another thing that has been expressed here: Tony is dead. Can we stop jumping on his grave?

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 8:42:18 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144713: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:42:52 PM

I don't agree that them splitting up is what leads to their downfall. Those scenes could have easily have happened if the Avengers were united or not.

Eta: don't speak ill of dead is especially silly when applied to fictional characters

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 1:44:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144714: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:45:57 PM

The framing of the story explicitly shows how the individual groups of Avengers aren't enough to stop Thanos's minions, implying thereby that they would have done a better job united. Indeed, we later see them beating his entire army united. I'm not sure how much clearer the message could be.

The entire quest of the protagonists throughout Infinity War is to assemble the team. It drives most of the conflict on their side.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 8:46:38 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144715: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:54:05 PM

Thanos won because the writers wanted him to win. He would have won even if the Avengers were all together via the same diabolus ex machina as in the original. The only guy who stands a chance, Thor just doesn't show up until it's too late.

Vision can be shanked in the back on a date night with Wanda whether or not CW happened.

The same method of dividing the teams: that some can make it to Ebony Maw's ship and some can't can be used to split the teams whether or not Civil War happened.

Civil War barely hinders them at all and again the philosophical divide is never addressed. Basically, Tony says he was right, no one argues because he's on the edge of death and then he magnamiously forgives Steve 5 years later and nothing more needs to be said.

Eta; at no point in Infinity War is assembling a team their goal. Steve's team's goal is to get the mond stone out of vision and dextroy it. Tony's goal is to tackle Thanos head in. Thir's goal is get a new axe and then tackle Thanos head on.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 1:57:00 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144716: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:56:00 PM

Wow.

You do you, man, but I just can't take that kind of cynical view towards the writing.

"Thanos wins because the writers want him to win" is the most Doylistic take I've ever seen and it's completely unhelpful to any kind of analysis. But you keep that up, see how it goes for you.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#144717: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:57:49 PM

[up][up] That's not how it's written though. Yes, the writers can contrieve a miriad of scenrios to have Thanos come out victorious in the first round. But they chose to do it directly as a result of the team falling apart in the Civil War.

So that action alone means there were consequences. And then in Endgame the teams come together to undo Thanos' damage and EVERYONE teams up, furthering reinforcing the idea.

Edited by MrSeyker on Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:59:59 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144718: Jul 22nd 2022 at 5:57:53 PM

[up][up]You were the one telling me that stuff happens 'just because' the other day.

I also said a lot more than that just now.

Eta: [up] it's just not a consequence though imo.you could cut out CW and you'd barely need to change IW.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 2:01:11 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#144719: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:01:53 PM

"Thanos wins because the writers want him to win" is factually true but offers no valuable information whatsoever. When writing a story, the devil's in the details. What matters isn't that he won. It's how he won. The means by which the writer justifies the inevitable plot points is what the story is about.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144720: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:05:27 PM

. I remember someone on the forum once put it really well: modern society loves stories about kings, but we hate stories about monarchies.

Though Japanese media still has sympathetic monarchies.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#144721: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:07:05 PM

As someone who's fallen into the this happens because the writer says so trap, I do realize that it's also the writers job to create good in universe reasons for why that happens.

Though I do kinda agree that Thanos might have won that first time even if the team had been united.

Like, he did almost win again in Endgame, despite technically being weaker than his 2019 self. The guy is powered by pure unfiltered power of I'm right, and I kill as many of you as possible to prove it.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144722: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:09:48 PM

[up][up] Stories there do play more into the greatness of a king.

Record of Ragnarok for instance has Qin Shi Huang the First Emperor of China and he's a kickass badass whose arrogance is justified because he is The King Where It All Began the first one to unify all of China in one majestic empire.

And his battle with Hades ends with Hades giving the human full respect, honored that that he fought such a great king such as him as well.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144723: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:11:59 PM

You were the one telling me that stuff happens 'just because' the other day.

Was I? I doubt it was in the same context, but if you feel like putting in the effort to dig it up to justify your cynicism, go ahead. I'll take my licks.

Infinity War spends quite some time dealing with the consequences of both Civil War and Ragnarok, so they are important to the story. They don't need to continue that through-line for the whole film, although they still kind of do by having Tony break down in Endgame.

Anyway, let's not mix up plot points.

When Thanos sends his minions to Earth to get the Mind Stone and the Time Stone, they face a divided Avengers team. Had everyone been present in New York, it might have been possible to stop them. Now, you can make the point that this is because "the writers needed Thanos to get the stones so he can win", but as has been expressed already, that's not helpful to the analysis.

There's a second theme, which is that Thanos is willing to sacrifice people (specifically Gamora) while the Avengers are not, and this unwillingness also leads to their defeat. If Wanda had killed Vision rather than trying to extract the Mind Stone, Thanos would not have won. We can argue about the Guardians — the reasons they go to Knowhere are kind of stupid, but there was an opportunity for Quill to kill Gamora to stop Thanos from learning the location of the Soul Stone and that would also have stopped him.

Going back, though, there were several opportunities for the Avengers to fight Thanos on more favorable terms but they did not, largely because of the disunity resulting from Civil War. That's the through-line. It is not "ignored" and the consequences are significant. They still might have lost had this not been the case, but the story as it is told makes a point of calling them out.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:13:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144724: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:14:32 PM

Thanos wins because the writers want him to win" is factually true but offers no valuable information whatsoever. When writing a story, the devil's in the details. What matters isn't that he won. It's how he won. The means by which the writer justifies the inevitable plot points is what the story is about.

True. My point is... Civil War is no way critical to that justification at all in my opinion. You could get the same effect with minor tweaks to IW's script.

I think it's no way near as clear as people claim that the division is crucial to their loss nor is it emphasised in the film as much as people are saying.

And finally even to grant for the sake of argument it fulfills a plot purpose that doesn't excuse it leaving a bunch of character stuff hanging and only resolving it with "it's five years later and so no one cares'

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 2:15:38 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144725: Jul 22nd 2022 at 6:15:44 PM

It's five years later and no-one cares because half of everyone is dead. They have bigger problems. Also, Tony still cares, and the first thing he does after being rescued is chew Steve out over every grievance from Civil War onwards and then collapse.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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