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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#141126: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:42:35 PM

Doom is deeper than that

He is and he isn't. A lot of his motivation comes from his petty grudge against Richards.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141127: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:47:27 PM

[up]Oh, absolutely, but Doom has a lot of layers to him even if a lot of them are tied to "this dude has literally every reason in the world to be over this shit, but he isn't". I want to see Doom stick around as a major part of the MCU and fleshing out his character and deconstructing him is a good way to keep him fresh and interesting.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#141128: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:50:34 PM

Doom, like Magneto, gets a lot of "Depending on the Writer" treatment. Sometimes he's a card-carrying bad guy who just does evil things because he's evil, and sometimes he's a complex and nuanced figure.

But Doom, unlike Magneto, doesn't have much actual sympathetic qualities or pathos to build complexity and nuance off of. It's just that sometimes writers like to depict cruel fascist monsters as being in some way noble.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 4th 2022 at 1:51:07 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141129: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:53:05 PM

As Doom would say.

"'King of Space.' 'Master of the Sun.' You claim such vast dominions. Is it to balance your small souls? Could I not lay claim to the light and the void, if I wished it? Have I not earned such titles? I, who have mastered all arts, all sciences, all secrets? Whose technology and magic cross the stars as easily as they scramble an alpha telepath's mind? Who would dare to say I have not earned the right? Yet I am king of only a simple nation. On a simple planet. A beloved garden tended by iron hands. And the only title I have ever claimed... is doctor."

And he’s not really exaggerating. As terrible a person as he is, every statement he made isn’t merely a boast.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 4th 2022 at 1:53:27 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#141130: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:53:19 PM

[up][up] Doom's backstory is pretty sympathetic. And him being an authoritarian or not is also very Depending on the Writer. Sometimes he orders his citizens to cheer for him at gunpoint. Sometimes he makes great sacrifices for the good of his people.

Edited by Forenperser on Apr 4th 2022 at 10:53:27 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#141131: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:55:02 PM

there's more you can do with Doom then Magneato I think,the latter has developed a rigid background that writers can't really change

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141132: Apr 4th 2022 at 1:59:14 PM

I think both sides could be balanced: Latveria could actually be a nice place to live and Doom could be a good ruler (though Latveria would absolutely have a dark side, probably its draconian punishments for even minor infractions), and he could have a lot of fairly noble qualities, but all are swallowed up by his selfishness, his ridiculous unyielding grudge towards Reed that drives so many of his decisions, his general pettiness and vindictiveness, and his absolutely monolithic ego. Doom could and would do good things, but not for good reasons - he's not doing them out of the kindness of his heart, he's doing them to stroke his ego and get one up on Reed.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141133: Apr 4th 2022 at 2:40:10 PM

Imo what they should do regarding Doom is introduce him in a minor way in the fist FF film, then give him his own Villain Protagonist film, leading to whatever bigger role he is meant to have in the MCU.

One of the several problems with the older depictions of Doom in film is that the filmmakers - aware of how big a name Doom is - keep wanting to make sure Fantastic Four are also Doctor Doom films. Couple that with the problem that they keep wanting to be origin movies (where the origin is the least interesting part of the Fantastic Four), that means morphing Doom into being a part of the Four's origin, which since Doom has nothing to do with that means rewriting everything that makes him what he is and turning him to effectively someone else to fit the dual origin.

So just give Doom his own film.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141134: Apr 4th 2022 at 2:41:30 PM

[up]I was thinking more a TV series, but Doom as a fixture needs to have his character fleshed out. Introduce Doom in the film, and have him play a role in the F4's origin (probably being one of the people to tell Reed that entering a cosmic storm is an awful idea and he's making a gigantic mistake embarking on that mission, while knowing full well that Reed is going to do it no matter what and he's mostly saying this so he can go "I told you so" when Reed faces the consequences) and Reed's own metamorphosis into Mr. Fantastic, and establish why Doom hates Reed, and then have Reed actually learning from the experience and growing as a person be the thing that drives Doom over the edge into supervillainy now that he has been denied his ultimate opportunity to savor Reed's destruction. Then give him his series chronicling his life, how he rose, the full story of why he came to hate Reed so much, and how he came to rule Latveria.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 4th 2022 at 2:48:01 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141135: Apr 4th 2022 at 2:47:15 PM

I dunno about a tv show. Doom is a big grand character, but there isn't an awful lot to him on his own. He's got a big storyline or two, like looking into hell to find his mother, and so on, but he's not really a tv show character where he can keep doing thing after thing by himself for episode after episode, seeason after season.

A big, singular plot introducing him and what he's about is more suited to the character, imo.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#141136: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:22:14 PM

wild mass guessDoom gets a grandiose, Oscar Bait epic about his rise to the top, and then the film abruptly ends with him getting his butt kicked by a flock of squirrels.wild mass guess evil grin

[down]But defeating the absolutely real Doom for once is her claim to fame. sad

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 4th 2022 at 3:30:49 AM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141137: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:25:43 PM

[up]Post-credits: Squirrel Girl only defeated a Doombot.

In all seriousness, going back on my earlier idea to have the U-Foes be the villains, Doom's big moment to shine would probably be showing up right when the F4 were really starting to struggle against them in the climactic battle and announcing his presence via big magical circles forming under all of them as he uses them to steal their abilities, then takes a minute to test all of them out before going on his big speech about how he cannot believe how well the direct and indirect consequences of Reed's follies worked out for him, and how the U-Foes were a bunch of idiots following the emperor with the new clothes (Reed), but that even brilliant people like Doom sometimes need solutions provided by stupid people.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 4th 2022 at 3:37:37 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#141138: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:47:58 PM

Again though, the F4 have plenty of their own villains that they don't need to use Hulk's. Plus fans seem to be tired of villains that are just evil versions of the heroes.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141139: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:49:59 PM

They're a threat, and an easy way to showcase the ripple effect of Reed's arrogant recklessness and for Doom to steal the show and do Doom things, and it's not like the MCU doesn't steal from other rogues galleries all the time.

Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#141140: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:51:25 PM

Yeah but they don’t sound interesting as Fantastic Four antagonists.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141141: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:52:42 PM

Sorta falls into the evil version of the heroes trope.

While their powers aren't identical, they do have a similar-ish enough appearance that it still counts.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141142: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:53:33 PM

They're sacrificial lambs for Doom at the end of the day, they don't have to be that interesting.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#141143: Apr 4th 2022 at 3:55:44 PM

Have the U-Foes ever fought the FF now that I think about it?

Like, considering their nature, it seems like a natural thing to happen at some point.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Apr 4th 2022 at 3:58:11 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#141144: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:00:44 PM

I feel like a Fantastic Four movie that features Doom as a cameo/supporting role followed by a Disney Plus series showing his Start of Darkness before he makes his big splash in a movie would probably be for the best.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#141145: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:01:43 PM

Yeah with how much shit comic book movies get for relying on Evil Counterparts as villains the last thing we need is to give the FF someone else's bad guys just to facilitate that.

The U-Foes are great higher-grade fodder types to add flavor to MCU Earth, something that the MCU is still refusing to fully indulge in (and something I'll give kudos for The Suicide Squad for actually grazing).

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#141146: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:02:38 PM

I just hope they don't fuck around and give us a dialed-down Doom like the Fox movies did. The MCU is radical enough of a setting at this point to go full-blown Master of Technology and Sorcery Doom. Doom, at his best, is like if Dr. Strange and Tony Stark did the Fusion Dance and the result was pure, malevolent evil (and exactly as much ego as you'd expect that combination to produce).

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 4th 2022 at 4:03:37 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#141147: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:04:24 PM

fusion is a weak tactic to make weak villains stronger!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141148: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:08:09 PM

[up][up]Which is where I want to see Doom go - Doom finding a way to steal powers from someone like the Beyonder, Dormammu, or Amatsu-Mikaboshi would be a great conclusion to his saga if they ever did send him off. Doom and Strange definitely need to have something go down, and maybe Strange reluctantly agreeing to help Doom get his mother back from Mephisto would be a good way to explore Doom's sorcerous side. It would also make a great way of highlighting just how ridiculous his grudge is - all that power, all that prestige, and yet he needs to hate Reed to justify so much of his existence.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 4th 2022 at 4:09:33 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#141149: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:27:30 PM

For F4 villains I'd actually hold up on using Doom. I'd start with Red Ghost AND HIS SUPER-APES (the F4's soviet counterpart used chiefly in their early days for self-evident reasons) in a space-faring movie allá Lost in Space and follow it up with a Journey to the Center of the Earth story where they go to the very crust of the planet to fight Mole-Man. Leave Doom to get his big showdown with the Four in the third film, presumably in some kind of dimensional shenanigans (they could loosely adapt the story where Doom goes to Hell to save his mother and place Doctor Strange as a supporting character).

A loose adaptation of Sub-Mariner: The Depths (i.e. a abyssal horror comic where Namor is basically Chthulhu) of the Fantastic Four exploring the abyssal depths of the world and its mysteries would make for a great film, too. The F4 have a lot of easily filmable material if the cards are played right. You can basically make a franchise just out of "The Fantastic Four explore (x)" with various Marvel locales (the Hollow Earth, The Negative Zone, Atlantis, Monster Isle, The Savage Land, e.t.c).

Edited by Gaon on Apr 4th 2022 at 4:27:42 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141150: Apr 4th 2022 at 4:32:05 PM

The Negative Zone and Annihilus would work well with the current multiversal theme, especially if Annihilus gets an eldritch horror makeover (or at least nudges towards that). I still doubt that the Savage Land would ever work in the MCU, but I guess maybe if it was some sort of temporal anomaly spawning from too many reckless experiments or spells.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 4th 2022 at 4:34:45 AM


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