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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140851: Mar 23rd 2022 at 1:54:16 PM

I've been meaning to ask did you have a problem with Killmongers stance in Black Panther?

I mean, I do have a problem with Killmonger, mostly because it feels like the writers pulled the same trick that was pulled with Bane in The Dark Knight Rises (and which Magneto gets hit with a lot). Killmonger is written to be a hypocrite because the audience is supposed to root for T'Challa. The difference is that he's given a tragic death to make sure the audience sympathizes with him, and his positions hold greater weight to the film's conclusion instead of being brushed to the side.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140852: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:17:14 PM

I do feel sometimes the X-Men Films try to give similar points to Magneto as they do to Killmonger. He doesn't attack any of the soldiers on the boats until they all lob missiles at him. Nevertheless I feel enough people find Killmonger compelling that I could see Magneto getting similar positive reception if they do him similar, which well as you say they often do.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140853: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:22:18 PM

The difference is that Magneto has a lot of baggage because a lot of writers, for whatever reason, insist on going full-tilt with the Nazi parallels. First Class is probably the most egregious because Matthew Vaughn's politics (going by his movies) are godawful reactionary garbage (just watch The King's Man for proof).

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140854: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:34:15 PM

What you felt it was more subtle with Killmonger? He was still going to kill a lot of people and there were heavy imperialist parallels. Is your specific problem the Nazi parallels? I think I've asked you this before, so sorry if I'm reiterating that.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140855: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:38:37 PM

I mean, I'm gonna take a lot of exception to portraying a Holocaust survivor as a Nazi analogue, yes.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#140856: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:44:28 PM

Going back to the Avengers issue for a moment, the impression I kind of got from the end of the first movie is that they Assemble when needed to face enormous threats, and then mostly split up to do their own things the rest of the time.

Of course, this does make it a little puzzling that things like the Dark Elf invasion and Project Insight don't require Avengers intervention, but hunting down Rumlow and co. does. I suppose there's a issue of not having enough time, but I feel like that there should be a system where they can, like, put them on alert in short notice somehow. Point being, I think it's a bit lopsided.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:45:52 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#140857: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:47:33 PM

AOU needed to have been a much better movie than it was, or another movie needed to come between them dealing with the matter. Far too much is just left unexplained between Wanda's joining and Civil War.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#140858: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:49:44 PM

So, if we go by the idea that the Avengers were justified for the Chitauri invasion and not for Rumlow's attack in Lagos, where does the thread stand on their attack on the HYDRA base at the beginning of Age of Ultron? Was that an Avengers-level threat?

Edited by chasemaddigan on Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:50:32 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#140859: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:53:58 PM

I forget, did Hydra have advanced technology? If so, I'd say yes?

Though that operation did show a fair amount of civilian discontent, which does tie into the whole "Not actually cooperating with authorities" thing, and I wish they would address that more often.

Oh God! Natural light!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#140860: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:58:16 PM

The HYDRA base also had two metahumans and the mind-control staff Loki was using.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140861: Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:58:32 PM

x6[up] I can see that, fair enough. My father did often talk about holocaust survivors he knew in his Jewish chicken farmer community he grew up in in New Jersey. He did talk a lot about how a lot of them hated Germans with the passion of a fiery-thousand sons. Which, to be fair is not the same as becoming a Nazi analogue. But a lot of those types of Jews did become right-wing politicians active in Israeli politics. So I don't know I could tone down the Nazi analogues, but the idea of an oppressed becoming an oppressor isn't inherently off-limits in my mind. Mugabe is a thing, the end of the Haitian revolution is a thing. But at the same time, I do agree it has to be done with delicacy.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:58:50 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140862: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:06:27 PM

"Apparently the comics imply that the vast majority of mutants are incredibly weak, with mutations that outwardly look like deformities? And we only focus on the mutants that are powerful because it's a superhero story. Is that actually a thing? Cuz I'd like to see that angle in a modern film adaptation of the X-Men"

The funny thing is that we as viewers use the X-men and other characters of nominal importance as a benchmark for how powerful an "average mutant" is.

This can get to the point where we assume "x character is an average mutant", but in-universe he is considered more powerful than 99% of the population.

For example as viewers we might assume that Sif and the 3 warriors are average Asgardians, even though In-universe are among the strongest, second only to Heimdall and the royal family.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#140863: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:23:40 PM

Which, to be fair is not the same as becoming a Nazi analogue. But a lot of those types of Jews did become right-wing politicians active in Israeli politics. So I don't know I could tone down the Nazi analogues, but the idea of an oppressed becoming an oppressor isn't inherently off-limits in my mind.

The reference of Israel is apt in describing what is typically wrong with “oppressed becoming oppressor” stories. What most writers of such stories get wrong is that they assume that victims of oppression would channel their anger into completely subjugating their oppressor, when more commonly what actually happens is the victims channel their anger into subjugating a smaller weaker group instead.

With Israel, anger over the Holocaust is channeled into attacking Palestinians, who had nothing to do with it. What a Magneto plot would look like is less “Magneto tries to oppress all humans” and more “Magneto attacks mutants with weak powers”. It’s kind of like how it’s common for young bullies to have abusive parents, because they know they can’t actually fight back against a grown adult so they take out their anger on other kids who can’t defend themselves.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Mar 23rd 2022 at 4:33:34 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140864: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:28:10 PM

My father did often talk about holocaust survivors he knew in his Jewish chicken farmer community he grew up in in New Jersey. He did talk a lot about how a lot of them hated Germans with the passion of a fiery-thousand sons. Which, to be fair is not the same as becoming a Nazi analogue. But a lot of those types of Jews did become right-wing politicians active in Israeli politics. So I don't know I could tone down the Nazi analogues, but the idea of an oppressed becoming an oppressor isn't inherently off-limits in my mind. Mugabe is a thing, the end of the Haitian revolution is a thing. But at the same time, I do agree it has to be done with delicacy.

The idea of an oppressed people indulging in oppression isn't inherently bad, no, but the way it's frequently done in fiction is nauseating and idiotic. Haiti and Zimbabwe are hardly even good examples, the former had to do with driving out literal slave owners, and the latter had to do with white farmers owning the majority of the land in the country (and is in itself a much more complicated topic than "white people in Zimbabwe became oppressed"). Hell, both examples are regularly cited by white supremacists anyways. There's a reason for that.

Edited by Diana1969 on Mar 23rd 2022 at 9:30:34 PM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140865: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:38:25 PM

I mean Wikipedia defines the 1804 massacre as a genocide. Several of the people sited in that article are experts on genocide, not white supremacists. Witnesses often described the killing of several families or people who were sympathetic to the slaves plight. Like I do feel the films sort of go that direction with Magneto. Like he'll lash out at people who have hurt him or want to oppress mutants, but also people who haven't. I will agree the situation in Zimbabwe is complicated, especially cause Mugabe just took most of the land and gave it to his cronies instead. This is probably starting to get off topic though.

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 23rd 2022 at 6:39:11 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140866: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:44:42 PM

I'm not about to go into the history of the Haitian Revolution here.

My point is that oppressed nationalities and peoples, when they *do* lash out against other nationalities, tend to lash out against ones with even *less* power. Azerbaijan and Armenia were both oppressed under the Tsardom, for example, that hasn't stopped Azeris from committing ethnic cleansings against Armenians.

If a writer chooses to bring actual depth into it, they could make Magneto lash out against mutants who don't have the "right" mutations...but I have little faith they'd go in that direction.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#140867: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:47:10 PM

What do you think he'd claim were the "right" mutations, in that case? Like, the ones with power, the ones that would let them claim to be the "next step in evolution"?

Oh God! Natural light!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140868: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:55:24 PM

I don't know I could see him oppressing Inhumans. I'd actually be very interested in that.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#140869: Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:57:58 PM

Maybe he decides to be racist towards all non-Mutant metahumans.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140870: Mar 23rd 2022 at 4:15:38 PM

If we're looking at this from the "superior mutant" POV, I'd be curious about what Magneto would think about the MCU's "enhanced" individuals who aren't technically mutants. Like, would he consider Spider-Man and Captain Marvel to be inferior beings? Would he deplore mystical beings like Doctor Strange and Scarlet Witch? What about super soldiers like Isiah Bradley? Or aliens like the Asgardians or Skrulls? Would Magneto consider them "inferior" than the superior mutant standpoint?

Edited by MatthewWayne on Mar 23rd 2022 at 4:16:44 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#140871: Mar 23rd 2022 at 4:25:10 PM

I feel like he would treat them, specifically the heroic ones, like gods that forsook him. "You consider yourselves to be heroes yet you've turned a blind eye to our suffering. Why should I trust anything you say?"

Edited by Weirdguy149 on Mar 23rd 2022 at 7:26:22 AM

The legend has returned.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140872: Mar 23rd 2022 at 4:59:55 PM

I'm actually wondering if MCU X-Men might largely ignore the whole world-that-hates-and-fears them thing.

Like, when they brought Spider-Man to the MCU, they really tried to differentiate his stories from previous film adaptations (to the point it's unclear if Uncle Ben even existed in this verse).

They might do something similar with the X-Men. Since the Fox films leaned hard into mutants constantly battling prejudice, I could see an MCU reboot eschewing that in favor of "here's a bunch of superpowered teenagers who go to a special school together, take trips to the Savage Land, meet the alien Shi'ar, and get trapped on Mojo's reality show".

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140873: Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:38:19 PM

One possibility is that a small group commits heinous crimes against normal humans, and the entire race suffers from Guilt by Association Gag.

That is to say, it is what happens in real life with Russia and what happened with the inhabitants of the Middle East 20 years ago, so it is realistic.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140874: Mar 23rd 2022 at 7:19:17 PM

On the subject of Russia, do the flashbacks in WandaVision to the deaths of Wanda's parents feel like they're hitting a little too close for comfort now, given recent events?

Okey Dokey!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140875: Mar 23rd 2022 at 7:25:08 PM

I was actually wondering if Marvel will ever film in Russia again, or have the Red Guardian reappear in the near future given what's happening right now.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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