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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#140801: Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:27:58 AM

[up]I disagree. Steve was in command and made a very large number of mistakes (including as far as I can tell no communication with local authorities until after the attack was over) which resulted in significant civilian casualties and combat throughout a city. This was a thoroughly botched operation which he was in charge of.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#140802: Mar 23rd 2022 at 5:34:43 AM

[up]Yea, Wanda and Nat mention before the attack the local police dept isn't at a higher state of readiness, meaning they didn't know anything was going to happen. the Avengers had that info and decided they would handle it on their own. So its the Avengers who get the blame that the mission went bad.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Mar 23rd 2022 at 8:35:12 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#140803: Mar 23rd 2022 at 8:13:58 AM

[up] OMG THIS! I hate how everybody glosses over Steve's Epic Idiot Balls in that op. Made even worse that...TECHNICALLY...that wasn't an 'Avengers Level Op' at the end of the day Crossbones and his crew are bog standard mercs, not enhanced, not superhuman, just humans. Highly trained humans...but still normal humans.

There were no logicial reason for the Avengers to be there, the only reason they were there? Steve's personal hate boner for Crossbones, which he has a right to be personally pissed at him (the whole Hydra betrayal) but that doesn't excuse taking a superhuman team into another country without any permissions making a heck of a mess and then in essence going "Sorry my bad but these things happen." *facepalm*

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140804: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:16:54 AM

Wanda was in a classic trolley problem situation. She tried her best to contain and relocate the explosion after noticing it at the last possible moment, but was unable to get it clear of the surrounding buildings before she lost her grip on it, and 26 people died as a result. That's unfortunate, but not as bad what would've happened if she'd done nothing, and Crossbones ended up killing everyone in that marketplace and the surrounding buildings.

Yeah, if Wanda did nothing, that casualty count would be in the triple digits.

The deaths are on Crossbones, not on the people trying to stop him. Think of it this way: if you see an assassin advancing on someone in public with a gun, and you tackle him, but the gun goes off and hits someone else in the process, the blame for that person's injuries or death is on the gunman (me taking note from this assassination attempt in Boardwalk Empire).

Which is why it kinda irritates me that in the press coverage afterwards, no one on TV even mentions Rumlow. The same Rumlow who had worked for SHIELD for years and turned out to be one of HYDRA’s most valuable enforcers. Nor the fact that it was his bomb that Wanda was protecting people on the ground from. They just blame Wanda for not being able to save everyone, because that headline ("New Avenger kills 26 in failed attempt to defuse bomb") will get them more clicks than the real headline ("Terrorist kills 26 in suicide-bombing").

And in turn, Wanda's past track record as a former HYDRA volunteer and accomplice to Ultron make her an easy scapegoat for government pencil pushers seeking to have control over the Avengers so they can do their bidding. It does bother me somewhat that Steve's the only one shown comforting and defending Wanda onscreen, especially considering that the real agenda behind the Accords becomes incredibly obvious as soon as Thaddeus Ross is shown to be the one pushing them on the Avengers.

Edited by dmcreif on Mar 23rd 2022 at 1:17:50 PM

Okey Dokey!
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#140805: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:23:47 AM

My guess is that this particular news channel is owned by a HYDRA agent.

The legend has returned.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140806: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:24:26 AM

[up][up] The sad thing is, the idea of trying to smear flawed-but-good people using clickbait while ignoring the really horrible dudes who actually caused the problem seems really in-line with online news coverage in this day and age...

Edited by MatthewWayne on Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:29:10 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#140807: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:31:13 AM

[up][up][up]To be clear, Wanda's actions were fine. It's the decision to handle it themselves with no contingencies or local involvement and then mess it up that's a problem. And that decision seems to be made by the team leader, Steve.

You ear about an assassination in time to fly around the world to try to stop it, don't report ut to anyone, try to stop them yourself and mess it up...yeah, there's some blood on your hands.

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#140808: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:31:35 AM

I have to agree that Wanda has the least blame in the whole Lagos situation...she did the best with a really bad set of cards she was handed. The fact that almost immediately afterwards there wasn't a PR Media Team (paid for by Stark Industries) getting the Avengers side out there is another wallbanger moment.

I could go on for hours about the wallbangers in Civil War...

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140809: Mar 23rd 2022 at 10:41:03 AM

Stark Spin has a good sound to it for a PR company

Their logo is based on one of Iron Man’s earliest attempts at flight

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#140810: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:02:25 AM

I mean, Steve brings her on a mission and later tries to excuse her saying "She is just a kid!"

So either she is NOT a kid and he needs to take responsibility for a bad decision, or she IS a kid, then he needs to take responsibility for Child Soldier reasons.

Either way, Steve looks bad.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140811: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:06:29 AM

Once Bucky was aged up, Steve needed to put his child endangerment somewhere, even if a proxy

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140812: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:07:27 AM

[up] He does enough child endangering the second he and Spider-Man start duking it out.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:07:39 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140813: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:08:27 AM

Fair but that’s after the bit we’re discussing

If he’d only known he’d be punching a teen later in the movie…

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140814: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:15:17 AM

I love Peter telling Aunt May that he got beat up by this guy Steve from Brooklyn.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140815: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:19:00 AM

I have to agree that Wanda has the least blame in the whole Lagos situation...she did the best with a really bad set of cards she was handed. The fact that almost immediately afterwards there wasn't a PR Media Team (paid for by Stark Industries) getting the Avengers side out there is another wallbanger moment.

If Wanda was a member of the Seven, we know Vought's spin doctors would be on the scene within minutes.

I mean, Steve brings her on a mission and later tries to excuse her saying "She is just a kid!"

When Steve said that, he wasn't trying to excuse Wanda. He was saying that because Tony was de-humanizing a teammate and basically treating her in was that reminded him of the internment camps that Japanese-Americans were thrown into during the Second World War (remember Jim Morita's "I'm from Fresno, ace" crack from The First Avenger? He enlisted to avoid going to the camps).

Okey Dokey!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#140816: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:24:19 AM

…Wanda being made to stay in a fancy mansion watched by one friend is not anyway near comparable to the conditions of internment camps.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#140817: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:26:12 AM

[up][up] It doesn't really matter in what context he said it, he said that she was a kid. Him bringing her on a mission looks bad with that in mind.

[up] This too.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#140818: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:46:35 AM

And lets be honest.

Wanda's actions led to the deaths of 26 people. Better option then doing nothing, best she could do under pressure that means very little when the public is baying for her blood. Tony ALSO stated that she wasn't a US Citizen. My guess (not outright said but the implications were there) there was an effort to get Wanda deported so she could be shipped to Wakanda to stand trial for the deaths. The drive to get Wanda to stand trial got shoved aside when Bucky got the target on his back.

Tony's choice to have her under house arrest and out of sight was the BEST option for Wanda, her going out, with the HIGH possibility of getting harrassed, lashing out, would have made her already fragile status so much worse.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140819: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:48:33 AM

…Wanda being made to stay in a fancy mansion watched by one friend is not anyway near comparable to the conditions of internment camps.

It kinda is comparable. Wanda was held against her will without being charged or informed by a legal authority of her status, which is exactly how Nisei were treated. Moreover, Vision specifically said to Wanda that the reason she was being interned was not for her own safety, it was because "Mr. Stark would like to avoid the possibility of another public incident."

There's a reason why, when Tony lets slip about Wanda, they have Steve say, "Protection? Is that how you see this? This is protection? It's internment, Tony."

Tony's choice to have her under house arrest and out of sight was the BEST option for Wanda, her going out, with the HIGH possibility of getting harrassed, lashing out, would have made her already fragile status so much worse.

The idea is good on paper. The problem is how he went about it. Instead of approaching Wanda in person and suggesting she lay low for a couple days, he made a unilateral decision and went behind everyone's back. Nobody knew about it except Vision. He didn't tell Steve, the team leader. While Wanda, the literal subject of the matter in question, only found out accidentally when she tried to leave to shop for food. Keep in mind Tony is not even an active member of the Avengers anymore at the time, let alone in a position to be calling the shots.

Edited by dmcreif on Mar 23rd 2022 at 2:52:04 PM

Okey Dokey!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140820: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:51:24 AM

I assumed the "public incident" he was trying to avoid was of the angry mob variety.

And my guess is he never told Wanda because he was hoping he could get everything straightened out before she found out. If you're being interned in your home, but you're never told, and you don't decide to leave your home till after the internment's over, were you ever interned in the first place?

Edited by RavenWilder on Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:52:57 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#140822: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:54:35 AM

It kinda is comparable. Wanda was held against her will without being charged or informed by a legal authority of her status, which is exactly how Nisei were treated.

No. Just... No.

This is a horrifically offensive comparison (and relatedly, why the "oppression metaphor" for the X-Men fails. You cannot compare actions taken against superbeings who are objectively potentially destructive, In-Universe legality or not, with real people being persecuted just for belonging to a certain demographic. JFC).

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 23rd 2022 at 1:57:18 PM

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#140823: Mar 23rd 2022 at 11:55:11 AM

...And I repeat this is why I have SO MUCH TROUBLE with Civil War. The Idiot Balls were EVERYWHERE. Steve not seeing the HUGE ASS PR Disaster or seeing his role/faults for it, Tony trying to clean up the mess but not telling Wanda maybe hoping he can get it all cleaned up. Its one contrived screw up after another to build up the conflict to a point where it seems logical for the Avengers to split up.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#140824: Mar 23rd 2022 at 12:00:18 PM

[up][up]Steve literally makes that comparison in the movie, as quoted above.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Mar 23rd 2022 at 12:00:55 PM

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#140825: Mar 23rd 2022 at 12:01:47 PM

We're never gonna escape the Wanda discourse, are we? lol


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