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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140751: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:23:56 PM

That depends on your philosophy. Some people are very adamant about the whole "the ends don't justify the means" thing. As they see it, the rightness or wrongness of an action is determined entirely by the action itself, not by what it accomplishes.

Sure, but that's not how writing a story works. Matt Murdock is not a real person in an uncaring universe. He is a character in a story, and the moral positioning of the story is demonstrated by the consequences of actions that characters take. "The Good Guy always wins" because the consequences of villainy versus the consequences of heroism reveal the fictional universe's perspective on whose choices were right.

You're in the middle of a standoff with the villain and you lower your weapon, appealing to his good nature. In an optimistic story, the villain will realize the error of his ways and lower his weapon. In a cynical story, the villain will take this opportunity to shoot you in the face; You are not the hero of this story, you're the poor dumb asshole who dies to set the tone.

Choice and consequence are the bread and butter of writing. The beliefs of the work, sometimes even the writer, are revealed through the consequences for the choices that characters make.

Sam chooses to believe that the Flag-Smashers aren't orcs. And he is punished for that belief. Zemo chooses to believe that the Flag-Smashers will only stop when they are wiped out, and the series agrees with him. Between the possible resolutions that Sam and Zemo offer, the story decides to go with Zemo's. There is no place here for Sam's optimism.

Sam is allowed to pay lip service to higher ideals, but the story doesn't actually believe in the things he says. He is The Fool, spouting platitudes while murderers solve the plot.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:29:10 PM

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140752: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:33:26 PM

I dunno, there are stories where someone refuses to fight back against an aggressive attacker, suffers and dies as a result, but this is painted as a noble action, refusing to compromise their ideals no matter the consequences. For obvious reasons, it's most common in stories inspired by Christianity.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#140753: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:35:39 PM

Depends on the tone of the story.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140754: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:37:48 PM

Yeah, but such a sacrifice generally results in positive consequences. They're dead, but for dying virtuously, they're still rewarded by the effect their death has on the plot. Typically by inspiring others to action through their nobility.

They die, but hundreds more appear to carry their banner. Or the world learns a valuable lesson and vows to do better from seeing how far they would go for what they believed in. Or something to that effect.

Rarely is it presented as,

  • Hero: I believe that this can be resolved peacefully.
  • Antihero: Whatever, man. You do you. (shoots the villain in the face)
  • Narrator: And then everyone was happy, for the villain was slain.

In fact, when the Paragon says that xyz is the right course of action, undermining them to do the wrong course of action usually makes things worse. In a story where the writer actually agrees with their protagonist, anyway.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:39:34 PM

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Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#140755: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:42:00 PM

I know Se7en and Deadpool 1 end this way. Granted, the former is pretty much a textbook The Bad Guy Wins style of Downer Ending, but still.

Edited by Weirdguy149 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:42:18 PM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#140756: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:07:00 PM

The flag-smashers dying was portrayed as a tragedy, not a good thing. The good ending would be them going to jail, them dying was a bad thing done by bad people, in the process of setting them up to be bigger villains later down the line.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#140757: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:09:19 PM

I get what they were going for with John Walker, they wanted to have him fall and rise again so he can be the edgy Anti-Hero Captain America he is in the comics.

But there's such a disconnect between episode 5 and 6 that it feels like content is missing. Episodes 4 and 5 set him up like he's gonna descend further down into villainy, but when he shows up in episode 6, it's in a morally neutral capacity at worst (he's fighting the villain, but for his own selfish reasons) and then he redeems himself anyway before he can do anything else particularly heinous.

It feels like they were setting him up for a longer villain arc only to skip right to the redemption phase without truly giving us "evil Captain America". Him executing the one Flag-Smasher dude felt like it was supposed to be his Start of Darkness (emphasis on "start") but instead wound up being his nadir, with nowhere to go but up from there.

I do hope they use him in interesting ways going forward because there's a really interesting character concept buried in there, but it was really sloppy execution in TFATWS.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#140758: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:19:46 PM

I do think Falcon and the Winter Soldier is the weakest of the Disney Plus shows thus far. It's ambitious, I'll give it that. But for me at least, the main problem is that there's just so many plot elements going on at once that they kind of drag the others down. It's a six episode miniseries, but there's so many subplots going on that it shifts focus on a dime. We have:

  • Sam's internal struggle of whether he should take up the shield.
  • Bucky coming to terms with his time as the Winter Soldier and trying to atone.
  • The Flag Smashers whole plan.
  • The reveal with Isaiah Bradley and the injustices he faced during his service.
  • John Walker taking up the mantle of Captain America, his eventual descent and redemption.
  • Zemo's machinations to eliminate other super-soldiers.
  • The Power Broker stuff.

And that's not getting into stuff like Sam's relationship with his family, or the stuff with the Wakandans.

It's like they had a lot of ideas for the series, and decided to use all of them. Now, technically some of these are connected into other subplots, but it still feels like a lot for the show to juggle at once. The other shows had much more streamlined conflicts, even if there were a lot of twists and nuances to said conflicts.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:21:06 AM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#140759: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:41:06 PM

I'm firmly of the belief that FatWS got hacksawed like crazy in post-production and nothing the creators can tell me will convince me otherwise. There are so many blatant cuts left exposed that you'd have to be going out of your way to write shit to do it intentionally.

What makes it more bizarre is that the Wandavision creators have been open about straight-up losing an episode to COVID and how that messed things up with the ending, how they had a lot more with Monica, the kids, and Ralph Bohner that wound up cut because of it. And those were far less noticeable in part because that was only really at the end. So frankly I dunno how we haven't heard more than the interview with Veronica Falcon (the actress who plays Mama Donya).

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#140760: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:47:42 PM

Huh, I wasn't aware of the missing Wandavision episode.

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#140761: Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:52:57 PM

Yea there was 10 episodes plannned for the show but it was brought down 9 for better pacing.

Edited by DoubleOG on Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:59:12 AM

Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#140762: Mar 22nd 2022 at 2:03:14 PM

Concerning why Tony Stark is not in prison for Ultron, He did built Ultron as a reaction to Wandas mind manipulation when the Avengers attacked the Hydra base in the beginning of the movie. And Ultron was built using a alien A.I from Lokis scepter, not one Stark built himself. Wonder if that would hold up in court? do not know.

Edited by Rorian on Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:10:24 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140763: Mar 22nd 2022 at 2:31:19 PM

He was brought before congress once and he basically flipped down birds and told him to kiss his ass

And then he died

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140764: Mar 22nd 2022 at 2:34:33 PM

The "Wanda made him do it" argument is legally questionable. But even if it works, it then immediately warrants the follow-up question, "Okay, so why isn't Wanda in prison?"

Tony and Wanda are the two major "WTF Go to Jail" characters in the Avengers. Though Clint joined them recently, having spent five years committing serial mass-murders for fun.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 22nd 2022 at 2:35:53 AM

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MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140765: Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:35:53 PM

Could any prison actually contain Wanda at this point? Now that she's become the Scarlet Witch and has the Darkhold to learn from, she's basically the world's most powerful woman. At least Stark would be easy to subdue after you take his suit from him.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#140766: Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:39:12 PM

What would Tony be charged for when it comes to Ultron’s creation?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#140767: Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:46:52 PM

being a terrible father

-dodges fruit-

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140768: Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:48:09 PM

Tony's done a lot of shitty things, but at least he was a better dad than Howard.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#140769: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:09:15 PM

Wanda, yes. Like, seriously. Woman. The whole Johannesburg thing was not cool. Does anybody even know you did that?

Tony...eeehhh? Tony's case with Ultron is really weird and hard to pin down on him, if not only for the fact it was his and Banner's creation. But there's more to it then that?

As pointed out, some mental buggery from Wanda may have come into play. There's also the fact that Ultron giving Sokovia a taste of the homicidal glitch he called a personality...that part is very heavily implied to not be Tony and Banner's fault. Lines like "I don't know how that happened, that thing wasn't even slightly ready when we walked away", Thanos going "Alright, that was a waste. I'll go there myself, not like I have anything better to do, I just sat in a chair for five movies", and the noted mental effects that the Soul Gem in Loki's Stick has, the one Thanos gave to Loki with an A.I thing in there to act as a sort of guardian, makes it hard to charge or, really, kinda blame Tony with much of anything. Responsibility for Ultron is very hard to pin on him or Banner.

I remember an analogy coined for this situation: if you drug somebody's coffee to make them homicidal and then you put a gun in their hand, does that make the drugged person guilty of murder?

Edited by fredhot16 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:11:12 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140770: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:24:45 PM

Even though accusing Tony of being the true villain of the Infinity Saga is my running gag, I've actually said the same as [up].

I always assumed there was some kind of trap or something in the Mind Stone that resulted in Ultron. Even considering that Tony was toying with this he didn't understand, things went way too wrong way too fast. As he said, they were barely days into it. It should have taken years for something like Ultron to happen.

And consider it also happened literally the moment that he and Bruce looked away. Days straight of work, and no results. They stop to go for one party, and Ultron immediately comes on line and goes genocidal? That's fucking suspicious.

Also, there is the fact that Wanda did mind whammy him to do try and create Ultron, even if the result was more extreme than she was expecting.

But everyone pretty much puts the blame on Tony in-universe (including Tony himself).

But yeah, he and Wanda should have gone to jail. No questions asked.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#140771: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:24:57 PM

The possible excuses for Tony (under Wanda’s influence, didn’t expect Ultron to break out right away) are shaky due to not applying to Banner, who was under no effects and warned that plugging in an alien weapon without telling anyone else could be very risky. And yet Banner helped with it anyway.

So Banner did wrong while being of sound mind. And given Tony quickly tried to do the same thing again with Vision, he may have not even needed Wanda’s help.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140772: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:38:49 PM

It is very infrequently said Banner should go to jail for Ultron

It’s not like he was a passive observer

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140773: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:45:38 PM

Banner has enough on his plate with Johannesburg.

But that wasn't his fault as we went over.

One Strip! One Strip!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140774: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:46:00 PM

If nothing else, building Ultron would likely fall under Ain't No Rule: there aren't any laws regulating the construction of artificial intelligence, because it's just never come up before. Undoubtedly some such laws were passed soon after the Ultron incident, but Tony can't be punished for doing something that wasn't illegal at the time.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140775: Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:52:03 PM

The hell he can't.

He's Tony Stark. He should be punished for everything.

One Strip! One Strip!

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