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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140726: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:05:34 AM

You could write a master's thesis about how mishandled Walker's arc was.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#140727: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:06:41 AM

Yeah I would've much preferred if they went with the Tragic Villain route (but ultimately still fundamentally wrong), rather than the Heel–Face Turn route. That was not earned at all.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140728: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:08:19 AM

I hate that "Walker DID NOTHING WRONG" is a valid takeaway from The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. But. Like. They forgot to actually write a resolution to his conflict. He just stops sucking and abruptly becomes a good guy because reasons, so you absolutely can infer that he was always a good guy and that nothing he did was inappropriate.

The series does plenty of implying that Walker is a problem. Sam and Bucky openly talk about what a problem he is. But the closest thing they actually wrote to a payoff of all the tension and build-up is Sam and Bucky mugging him for the shield - which the show suggests is only going to make him worse before he suddenly whips around and is the Bestest Guy Ever.

(I mean, he also executed a defeated and surrendering person, but the show ultimately takes his side on that and kills all of them off. So far as the writers were concerned, the Flag-Smashers are basically orcs. Chaotic Evil monsters who must be exterminated, every last one.)

So "Walker did nothing wrong and everyone just made a big hubbub about it because they didn't like him" is a valid interpretation of the show. And I hate it. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is such a fucking mess thematically.

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DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#140729: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:09:27 AM

I don't know.Walker as a character is some one who wants to do good.But goes about it the wrong way.

I feel the while the moment does fit the character but the plot didn't allow for that moment.

Edited by DeanCole on Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:10:46 AM

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140730: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:09:45 AM

I'd say John Walker was a short-tempered and flawed guy, who became a short-tempered and flawed guy when he became a Super-soldier.

The only thing is that he killed a person who was surrendering, but the John Walker without powers could very well have done the same.

[up]*2. I would say it's the opposite, the show wanted to show us the Flag smashers as tragic figures, and Walker as a class of Hate Sink.

In other words, Falcon did his best to talk to Karli and resolve things peacefully, while he was rude to John, every time he wanted to say hello.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:18:25 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140731: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:17:39 AM

That was such a contrived moment. I definitely did not buy that Walker cared at all to put others before himself. He certainly hadn’t at all before.

Well, the Super-Soldier formula enhances everything. Good and Bad.

We know Walker wasn't proud of what he did, and saw becoming Cap as a way to do some real good.

So I guess it's a question of if you think he had any good in him at all, and that the formula boosted that enough that in the moment, he let that side of him take control, or if you think that all the worse parts of him are much stronger.

I can buy that many believe the latter. John definitely needed something more to convince people he would make the choice he did in the finale. I think they focused so much on trying to line him up with his comic book self (jackass, but well meaning jackass who will do the right thing when it counts) that they didn't think about whether people would buy into it, or if it fit the story they were telling.

One Strip! One Strip!
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#140732: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:20:44 AM

If John does come back, I'd like a plot point to be "Okay, dude, you did some sort of good but you still killed a man in cold blood and you need to answer for that."

The legend has returned.
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140733: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:22:51 AM

And he did, the government used him as a scapegoat.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#140734: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:24:21 AM

I still suspect something happened that got lost in the COVID reshoots. There is a very glaring jumbling of transition for basically every character between episode 4 and 6 that feels like something must've gotten Thanos-snapped out of the story (and we know the show was originally meant to be eight episodes long, not six). The ship-rebuilding scene was well-done (because that was one of the things shot near the beginning of filming and thus mostly intact) but it does feel like it got popped in rather awkwardly with the events leading up to it feeling missing somehow.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 22nd 2022 at 4:17:00 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140735: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:27:43 AM

Pfft, superheroes don't answer for crimes they commit. If they did, several Avengers would be in prison right now. They've done much worse things than an extrajudicial murder.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:28:28 AM

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JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140736: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:44:01 AM

Considering that Wanda turned a city into an episode of the Twilight Zone, what John Walker did seems insignificant.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#140737: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:45:36 AM

[up][up][up]I agree. I believe a producer or somebody said that the show didn't have much issues with COVID affecting the story, but everyone's character arcs just jumps randomly at the end to a conclusion. Some of that build up was definitely left out.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 1:45:48 PM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#140738: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:48:39 AM

[up][up][up]Why is Tony Stark not in prison for Ultron again?

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#140739: Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:49:47 AM

Honestly, Karli seems to me to be the worst managed character than John.

John Walker was a flawed person that we had to see as a flawed person.

While Karli was a person who committed a lot of horrendous acts, who we had to see as a kind of tragic villain.


Those things were supposed to be handled by the Sokovia accords, which was ruined by the fact that the representative was Thaddeus "I'm going to start a battle in a university that's full of people" Ross.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 10:53:47 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140740: Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:18:07 AM

I agree that every character is mishandled (partly due COVID, I'm figuring) but I don't think there's a character in the MCU more incoherent than Walker. He literally goes from a obviously sinister scene in Episode 5 to being a bantering dashing hero in Episode 6 with 0 in-between. It's madness. Karli is practically shakespearean compared to his development.

Karli's actually kind of a funny thing where the show is so inept at its own themes that the finale ends up accidentally proving her right in a lot of regards (e.g. her argument that Sam is naive for thinking that they won't be uncerimoniously executed the moment they surrender, which is exactly what happens but Sam just does not give a shit).

PS: Westfield isn't remotely comparable.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140741: Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:30:40 AM

Sam suffers from the same problem that Matt runs into in the Netflix DareDevil series: He's supposed to be The Paragon, but part of being The Paragon is that your unyielding moral stance is supposed to influence the way the story fucking goes. The Paragon is meant to inspire people both in and out of universe. The lines he draws in the sand are supposed to ultimately be rewarded.

Instead, Sam and Matt exist in a story where their politics and the story's politics are directly at odds with one another. They wind up being naive idiots who stand around spouting platitudes while all the murderers around them solve the plot, because the writer apparently doesn't actually believe that their ideologies can work.

TFATWS directly pits Sam and Zemo against each other ideologically. And Zemo wins that argument. The Flag-Smashers are thoroughly exterminated, every last one. Sam tries to appeal to Karli and is consistently rebuked, until another villain shows up to take Karli out and save Sam from the consequences of his foolish naivety.

The show goes out of its way to tell us that Sam is a goddamn fool for believing that people can be better. And that's not how you write a Captain America story. Remember Steve's dramatic speech to S.H.I.E.L.D. about giving everything for what's right near the end of Winter Soldier? Tonally, TFATWS (and Netflix DD) are like if that speech ended with the non-Hydra S.H.I.E.L.D. officers storming the room and arresting him. Because fuck you, Steve; there is no better nature to appeal to!

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:35:47 AM

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Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#140742: Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:34:35 AM

[up]I was writing something similar up, but you put it much better than I would have.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#140743: Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:44:29 AM

I think the only parts of Falcon & Winter that works for me is the scenes of fixing the boat and with Ishrah Bradley. Everything else kind of made me embarrassed to have shown it to my girlfriend.

Oh that line where Sam reminds people he's a social worker, because I like reminding people he's a social worker.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#140744: Mar 22nd 2022 at 11:53:22 AM

Isaiah Bradley was fantastic in a way that ultimately wound up hilarious. Like, the ending is so proud of Sam proving Isaiah wrong. And all the people watching the show are like, "Did he, though?"

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MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140745: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:00:52 PM

[up] There was one guy I used to follow online who was really pissed at how Bradley got an entire area in the Smithsonian dedicated to explaining his story including how his death was faked, even though he specifically wanted to be left alone out of fear of his life being put at risk.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:01:29 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#140746: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:02:40 PM

TFATWS was a show with political elements that either didn't fully realize that fact, or decided to only treat them at an extremely surface level only. I think Karli and the other Flag Smashers getting killed was more about the MCU not wanting a bunch of Super-Soldiers in prison, just waiting to bust out for a future appearance and was less about how that action affected the plot of the show we were actually watching.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#140747: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:03:32 PM

Did it include the part where his death was faked? I thought it was an acknowledgement of the experiments that were done on him prior to that, though it's admittedly not very clear.

I believe a producer or somebody said that the show didn't have much issues with COVID affecting the story

Pretty sure that was Spellman, but he's got a history of being a Lying Creator taking the fall for Disney as damage control (not entirely his fault but still), and we know of at least one character who went from being in 4 episodes to 0.5. IIRC he also said the deleted subplot was not related to COVID, but again, see Lying Creator.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 22nd 2022 at 3:10:22 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140748: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:08:01 PM

[up] I checked the source I had, and the quote tweet he did seems to have been deleted. So I can't tell for sure.

But just by including information about him for the general public to know about him would definitely put the government back on his case. Sure, they might not arrest him again, but the fact that he's still a super soldier definitely puts him at risk, no?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140749: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:08:23 PM

Sam suffers from the same problem that Matt runs into in the Netflix Dare Devil series: He's supposed to be The Paragon, but part of being The Paragon is that your unyielding moral stance is supposed to influence the way the story fucking goes. The Paragon is meant to inspire people both in and out of universe. The lines he draws in the sand are supposed to ultimately be rewarded.

That depends on your philosophy. Some people are very adamant about the whole "the ends don't justify the means" thing. As they see it, the rightness or wrongness of an action is determined entirely by the action itself, not by what it accomplishes.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140750: Mar 22nd 2022 at 12:12:54 PM

[up] That only goes so far though. Like, if you choose not to retaliate against someone who is actively trying to kill you or others and is never going to stop, the "morally correct" action to not fight back starts to border on stupidity after a bit. At least that's how I see it.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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