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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140251: Feb 22nd 2022 at 3:12:16 PM

Yeah, the "netflix gang" is full of potential for that. In hindsight I suspect Marvel let Netflix had them partly because of what I said about their focus being near-exclusive on "avengers-level-threats" (to borrow Mysterio's Leaning on the Fourth Wall parlance). Luke, Danny and DD are the backbone of Marvel's "street-level". Now that they're bringing DD back into the foldd in some fashion, maybe we'll get something out of it.

I have my fingers crossed for Moon Knight too.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140252: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:18:34 PM

The only Avenger level threat in the Netflix corner was Kilgrave, and that would only be if Kilgrave had some sort of endgame beyond using his powers for frivolous and petty things.

Okey Dokey!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140253: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:22:54 PM

That would be more the Hand since their grand plan involved causing an Earthquake that would have totaled New York.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140254: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:29:50 PM

Technically the Avengers-level threat of the netlix-verse was The Hand (the whole "immortal ninjas after great power" pitch would for example have worked decently well in Shang-Chi), which is part of what didn't really work about them. It was a bunch of shows that sold themselves on complex societal issues suddenly swerving to "magical ninjas, yeah that's it".

Part of what makes Defenders comical is DD, JJ and LC spending most of the show basically going "you see there must be complex societal issues regarding this" and IF going "no, they're just ninjas. we should punch them" and IF being entirely vindicated at the third act.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#140255: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:34:32 PM

The Hand in the comics at least was in part a symptom of systemic issues in Japan as it transitioned from its feudal period to the early modern era. Its first incarnation was created by someone who wanted to remove foreign influence from Japan's politics and restore samurai to power.

Then that leader was murdered and a bunch of demon worshipers took over.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140256: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:40:25 PM

[up][up] Man JJ was completely out of her environment there as her detective skills were for the most part unnecessary.

She mostly just spent the series complaining about everything.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140257: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:43:36 PM

She really wanted nothing to do with the entire thing either as I recall.

She tried to opt out at least once, and got pretty sick of everyone knowing martial arts but her.

She's also the worst fighter of the group if you recall. Jessica's never been much for technique.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#140258: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:53:57 PM

I really want the MCU to do the New Avengers. Luke, Jessica, Iron Fist, Dr. Strange and/or Brother Voodoo, Spidey, Capt. Marvel (or Monica Rambeau) and maybe Wolverine if they finally introduce him.

Marvel's got the character's back, and tonally they're in a perfect place to do a team mostly composed of regular people with powers wanting to step up and do their bid to protect the world, with the more "larger than life" previous generation is either retiring or dead.

Maybe swap someone from the comics team out with Shang-Chi, and you're gold.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140259: Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:55:52 PM

Stick actually yelled at her to shut up because he couldn't stand her endless whining.

This is also where the Defenders low power-diversity screwed her over as power-wise she's basically just a weaker variant of what Luke can do. Matt and Danny are both martial artists but at least they have different focuses.

Jess meanwhile is just strong and durability, both of which Luke does and far better leaving Jess as the weakest or most generic fighter on the team.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:56:35 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140260: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:49:11 PM

[up]Actually, judging by how she managed to hold up that elevator that she, Luke and Danny were in when it nearly fell, she might be stronger....or at least lighter, which means there might be situations where she can do things Luke can.

One Strip! One Strip!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#140261: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:52:42 PM

It's especially jarring since in the comics Jessica also has Flight as a superpower. That's not something Luke can do.

Edited by M84 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:52:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140262: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:54:46 PM

That would actually give her a good leg up.

Flight is a very handy power.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#140263: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:56:55 PM

If I remember correctly, she’s out of practice when it comes to flight. She hasn’t flown for real ever since the catastrophe that caused her to quit being a superhero, so in the present her power is more like super jumping and at best floating unsteadily.

[down]Yeah, was talking about comics Jessica.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:00:45 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#140264: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:57:43 PM

One thing Jessica can do that nobody else can is jump real high. Which she does in the finale to catch the elevator cable. Even if Luke does outclass her for the most part, though, having one-and-a-half Luke Cages is better than having just one Luke Cage.

The bigger issue with Defenders isn't underutilizing Jessica's powerset, it's underutilizing her detective skills. When Matt, Luke, and even Danny to an extent are putting pieces together on their own or already know the things she's still busting her ass off to figure out, it makes her feel superfluous.

[up]I don't think it's ever been actual flight or hovering in the Netflix show? Just Hulk-style super-leaping. EDIT: Unless you're still talking about comics Jessica, in which case my bad.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 9:59:39 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#140265: Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:02:30 PM

The Netflix shows didn't really have much of a budget to make Jessica fly, so they just kind of skirted around it with jumping and stuff.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140266: Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:09:22 PM

[up][up] Yeah underutilizing her detective skills was a really big mistake.

Jess is very character-focused to a greater degree than the other 3, she has extremely simple powers but makes up for it with a lot of character. She is very much not a crossover friendly character if she's only here for the fight scenes.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140267: Feb 22nd 2022 at 8:04:50 PM

It all goes back to the fact The Hand as a supernatural ninja organization only really flows with IF and partway with DD. Luke Cage and Jessica feel like they're completely and utterly lost in the mystical shuffle.

Defenders would have been better served with a Mob War plot of some kind, so everyone can have some bearing in the plot.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140268: Feb 22nd 2022 at 8:09:43 PM

Certainly, they have the seeds for that in Daredevil season 2 with the gang wars that had broken out after Fisk's incarceration. A mob war plot might also have the benefit of having impacts on the later shows, with all of the 2018 shows minus Jessica Jones season 2 being affected.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:10:31 AM

Okey Dokey!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#140269: Feb 23rd 2022 at 8:09:29 AM

> The Netflix shows didn't really have much of a budget to make Jessica fly, so they just kind of skirted around it with jumping and stuff.

the proud tradition of jumping good continues

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140270: Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:16:17 AM

I guess that's the big difference between Disney and the not-Disney TV shows, huh? The former has Mouse Money backing it up, allowing it to go all in on gratuitous special effects. Thus we're really able to lean into the magical cosmic shit like Loki and WandaVision.

Meanwhile, Netflix, ABC and the rest don't have all that, allowing them to make more grounded street level stuff that people take more seriously. That leads us to things like Luke Cage and Daredevil.

YMMV on who prefers what, of course.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#140271: Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:32:14 AM

ABC (and Marvel Television) directly owned by Disney, so there's no need for the distinction on "the Mouse Money". The Netflix shows are just budgeted around your average amount for a broadcast television series ($1 mil to $4 mil per episode).

For reference, Season One of Daredevil costed around $56 million dollars. This credit naturally excludes Netflix because they just paid to distribute the series, not quite its production funding.

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Feb 23rd 2022 at 12:34:21 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140272: Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:38:16 AM

[up] True, but you can't deny that the Mouse was more willing to throw money at TV shows that are more closely connected to Feige and thus directly under their control, rather than the people behind Marvel Entertainment working with streaming rivals.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:38:34 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#140273: Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:47:32 AM

Pretty much as expected, the Netflix shows are being added to Disney's adult stream branch, Star+.

It's likely they'll be added to Hulu in the near future.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#140274: Feb 23rd 2022 at 1:15:02 PM

Suck it, anyone who said they'd skip rehosting Iron Fist or Punisher. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140275: Feb 23rd 2022 at 2:10:49 PM

I admit defeat.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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