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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#140226: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:01:35 AM

Speaking of Wanda and Strange, if they ever battle each other in the movie, what would be the outcome and what would be the fan's reaction to that outcome?

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#140227: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:16:53 AM

The old adage: the winner is whoever the writer wants to win.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#140228: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:18:01 AM

Speaking of Wanda and Strange, if they ever battle each other in the movie, what would be the outcome and what would be the fan's reaction to that outcome?

Well, setting aside Stan Lee's quote "The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win," it depends. Strange probably has the upper hand if he has time to plan his moves out in advance. However, that's so long as he can move his hands. Keep him from moving his hands to cast spells, and he's helpless (see him vs. Ebony Maw). Otherwise, Wanda probably has the upper hand despite being relatively unskilled.

It's definitely an interesting question of "Strong, but Unskilled" vs. "Weak, but Skilled".

Okey Dokey!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140229: Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:44:40 AM

I mean, Strange's screw up is also Peter's screw up.

He only did it as a favour to him (because he never bothered to try and ask if they could get in personally), and if Peter hadn't kept interrupting him, the spell would have been fine.

Then, Peter deliberately stalled on sending the villains back to cure them, which resulted in Goblin being able to wreck the box containing the spell.

What Wanda did, while not deliberate (at first), was all her.

One Strip! One Strip!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#140230: Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:49:37 AM

She was being gaslighted by SWORDS leader, which helped egg her in till she left Visions remains and had her breakdown, and he actively tries to manipulate the situation to ensure he can get his Vision and kill Wanda so he can blame his resurrection on her.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:50:02 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140231: Feb 22nd 2022 at 9:04:09 AM

Ok. I forgot that detail.

So in a sense, she's also not to blame.

Strange only screwed up because of Peter constantly distracting him, and Wanda only went off the rails because Heyward tried to trick her into brining Vision back.

....eh. I say destroy them both anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#140232: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:05:08 AM

Nah I’d say she holds some accountability, but it’s also clear with what he was doing that she was pushed to that point, so not all of it falls on her.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140233: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:10:25 AM

Eh. I still say destroy them both anyway.

I'm tired of heroes messing up.

Time to take them all down.

....I'm only 3/4 serious. I do wish, if they want us to still see them as heroes, that they didn't make the mistakes these guys make so.....huge. Like, they shouldn't be perfect, but there's a point where you screw up so badly that it doesn't matter if you meant for it to happen, or even if you legitimately feel guilt.

You should just get rekt, and never be forgiven.

One Strip! One Strip!
Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#140234: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:15:12 AM

People making up for the mistakes they’ve made is always better then just punishing them.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#140235: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:26:24 AM

I do think that the Serial Escalation of the MCU hurts the characters whenever they screw up, yeah. For example, Tony creating Ultron was partially a result of his trauma from the Chitauri invasion, but he still created a robot who explicitly wanted to destroy the world. That loses basically all of its relevance after Civil War, and later movies (especially the MCU Spider-Man movies) treat him like this revered figure. A smaller scale allows us to empathize with the heroes more because they're usually in not-too-fantastical situations and the decisions they make usually don't have world-reaching consequences.

People making up for the mistakes they've made is always better then just punishing them.

Eh, the Moral Event Horizon is a thing. I for one totally understand the people who think Wanda should be killed off/otherwise punished for what she's done, even though I don't entirely agree with them. A tragic backstory and outside circumstances only justify so much - and I do feel like that the MCU leans on "X character has tragic past/trauma" as an automatic audience sympathy button too hard and doesn't really show how that affects their actions in the present, though that's a whole other discussion.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#140236: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:27:44 AM

[up][up]True, but I'd say the jury is still out on how much Wanda is willing to make up for Westview.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:43:54 PM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140237: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:48:23 AM

I’d say the difference between Strange and Wanda is that Strange when he did his mistake set out to immediately rectify it and fix what he caused.

Wanda though refused to do it because she wanted to maintain the fantasy despite what it was doing to the people of Westview.

Wanda was in grief sure but it doesn’t change that she was ultimately selfish and hurt people doing so. Strange though was just trying to help a kid suffering from an extremely awful situation that ruined his life.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#140238: Feb 22nd 2022 at 10:51:37 AM

Also, from an In-Universe perspective, it'd be hard to hold Strange responsible given that nobody but Peter remembers it even happened, not even Strange himself.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140239: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:05:21 AM

[up][up]

This too. I wish they'd made it so Wanda wasn't deliberately controlling the Hex. Like, she may have done it by accident out of grief, but she did keep it up even once she was aware she was doing it.

Having Wanda be responsible, but not willing would have helped a lot. She would have also been a victim.

I think it's just another case of these guys upping the ante without considering how people will come to view the characters later.

One Strip! One Strip!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#140240: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:25:02 AM

Wanda didn’t realize what she had been doing was hurting people. It took being confronted with that for her to start releasing, up until it started killing here boys and Vision, and she did remove the barrier in the end for that reason.

But the fact it took her longer to reach that point would definitely be a sore point for people watching

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:26:01 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140241: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:30:24 AM

I mean, Vision told her to her face that Herb was in pain.

That should have been a clue.

One Strip! One Strip!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#140242: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:31:19 AM

In fairness, Wanda being ambiguously responsible for things is kind of a theme in the MCU.

Like, I've seen some arguments from people who think that she is the one that's truly responsible for Ultron's rampage, since she was the one who gave Tony that vision of his greatest fear, and then willfully assisted what he created for purely selfish reasons up until the moment where she realized he was an Omnicidal Maniac.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:31:38 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140243: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:42:23 AM

[up]I mean, that's a completely fair assessment.

Would Tony have even tried to create Ultron if Wanda hadn't given him that vision (no pun intended)?

But because it's Tony, I blame him as well. It's fun.

Of course. It's obvious Tony allowed himself to be mind whammied by Wanda, so that he would get the inspiration to create Ultron. I always knew he was a dastardly villain!

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140244: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:47:33 AM

I don't get why people complain.

I mean we finally have a female character who actually makes mistakes and is a pretty flawed person.

Like Tony Stark was an asshole sure but thats exactly what makes him a compelling character.

Especially since female characters tend to not allowed to be interesting or anything.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#140245: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:50:31 AM

I definatly think Wanda is one of the more interesting characters because the narrative is happy to let her fuck up and actually remember that.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#140246: Feb 22nd 2022 at 12:11:50 PM

Rob has finally hit the point of ye average marvel citizen

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#140247: Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:06:20 PM

[up]Oh god.

I renounce my hatred.

One Strip! One Strip!
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#140248: Feb 22nd 2022 at 2:25:38 PM

Joking aside, I reiterate that the MCU's Serial Escalation has hurt some peoples' ability to sympathize with a character. It's easier to sympathize with a character who makes bad decisions because of their past when the consequences of their decisions don't affect, say, the world's population.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140249: Feb 22nd 2022 at 2:52:21 PM

I think it's less a Serial Escalation and more a lack of serial de-escalation, as it were. The MCU has largely avoided the lauded "street-level" of heroes since pretty much day one. Iron Man 1 was already about Stark inventing a power source thaat could plunge the world into world war three if it fell in the wrong hands. It's always been on the larger-than-life tier of things.

The only film that tipped its hat towards street level was Homecoming, which is basically "Spider-Man has to stop a upscaled thief", but the Spider-Man sequels drop that like a sack of bricks, culminating in No Way Home's "the entire dimension is in harm's way".

In the tv side of things, Hawkeye has been the most street level and MK has hopes, so we'll see how it goes on that front.

Edited by Gaon on Feb 22nd 2022 at 2:53:23 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#140250: Feb 22nd 2022 at 2:57:36 PM

A Heroes for Hire show where its just Luke and Danny dealing with street level stuff would be perfect for that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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