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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I mean, Wanda did accidentally cause those specific people to get blown up but if she hadn't acted, different people would have been blown up instead. We can't honestly say which is better/worse either morally or in just numbers terms as we don't know what the "original" death count would have been...
... But really it's on Crossbones, the guy who ACTUALLY BLEW PEOPLE UP.
Oops,
d
Edited by jakobitis on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:19:55 AM
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."![]()
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I do genuinely think that Wanda should face more official consequences than she has, but yeah, I'm thinking more of her optics from the perspective of normal people in the MCU. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people who became disillusioned with the Avengers because of Wanda.
she's like a mixture of Hero with Bad Publicity and a person who genuinely deserves some of the bad publicity.
I really liked him in Winter Soldier even. Winter Soldier is one of the few multi-villain MCU movies where all the villains really work in my opinion. Crossbones is great. Bucky is great. Even Pearce is pretty great.
Edited by GNinja on Feb 14th 2022 at 10:31:34 AM
Kaze ni Nare!![]()
Frank Grillo has mentioned that he felt Marvel really didn't have a plan for Crossbones, and was disappointed with playing the character overall. The only reason he came back for Avengers: Endgame and What If...? is out of some kind of obligation.
Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:53:41 AM
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."That highlights Marvel's issue with killing off villains.
Okay so they don't have any plans for Crossbones at the time, doesn't mean they had to kill him. Just take him out of commission for a while so he can come back when they have a fun idea for him.
This is why we don't have any reoccurring villains, because they keep killing them off.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."![]()
which is funny because putting him on the shelf is exactly how Winter Soldier ends. He gets all the bones in body broken. He could've been out of commission for as long as they wanted him to be.
I'm still pissed they never followed up on the Leader tease from the end of The Incredible Hulk. XD
Edited by GNinja on Feb 14th 2022 at 11:18:05 AM
Kaze ni Nare!That scene makes zero sense. They're at a shipyard off the South African coast when Wanda gives the Hulk a vision of his greatest fear (like she did to everyone else. She doesn't explicitly tell them what to do), then a few minutes later he's somehow rampaging in Johannesburg, a city 250+ miles from the nearest coast. I think her plan was almost certainly to just have him fight the Avengers, not to go rampage a big city, especially since both Wanda and Pietro are very much against hurting innocent people in every other scene they're in during Age of Ultron. The writers basically needed a way to get a Hulkbuster vs. Hulk fight in the movie, and they didn't really care about the logistics of it (plus they wanted it to happen in a city because that's a more interesting landscape for such a fight than having it happen in an open field).
Wanda also didn't intend to do it at all. It all happened subconsciously when she had a mental breakdown due to overwhelming grief. Yes, she clung on to her fantasy for too long (a week in total) and ignored the glaring red flags, but when she actually saw the horror that the Westviewers were going through first hand, she immediately stopped despite having defeated anyone who could stop her (Agatha and Hayward), even if it meant her family would die again. It's a messed up situation, but it's a pretty complicated one too.
Personally, I give Wanda more leeway for what happened in Westview than I give Doctor Strange for nearly destroying reality in No Way Home. Both were terrible situations and cases of power being used recklessly, but Wanda has the excuse of being a complete novice at magic, and not fully aware of what she was doing since she was going through a mental breakdown. While Doctor Strange was willingly rolling the dice that could land on "multiversal collapse" because he thought he could handle it with his gigantic ego. It's actually quite disturbing how casual he is about tampering with the entire planet's memories. The fact the sorcerers seemingly use this spell (that is explicitly described as "traveling the dark borders between known and unknown reality") on a seemingly regular basis to do dumb stuff like concealing parties is played off as a joke. And people don't give any second thought to the potential implications it brings. Pulling this kind of reckless shit in most other franchises would be generally frowned upon, but because it got us Tobey Maguire's and Andrew Garfield's Spider-Men and their rogues back, people ignore how stupid it is for Strange to do this.
Edited by dmcreif on Feb 14th 2022 at 7:49:53 AM
Okey Dokey!
Like, yeah, Wanda had a mental breakdown and did what she did either subconsciously or she temporarily had a full-on break from reality. but with great power comes great responsibility and all that. Super-powered people can't be going around doing stuff like that.
That's why I said I don't think she should be treated badly. I think she needs someone to try and help her with the clear mental issues she has and until then she should be kept somewhat grounded so she can't hurt anyone, intentionally or otherwise.
Kaze ni Nare!That's what Wanda was doing at the end of WandaVision: going into exile, and learning to get a better grip on her powers to avoid repeats of Westview, just like she told Monica she'd do.
Okey Dokey!There's gonna be quite the debate about Wanda and Strange's actions once Mo M comes out...
Anyway, I can see both sides of the point, but its kind of hard to compare the two.
Strange was tampering with reality sure, but he screwed up due to outside interferences. You can't really pin everything on him because the implication is that if his concentration wasn't broken, he had it under control.
I understand Wanda was in a very bad place mentally when it happened, but you can't really change what she did and the effect it had on the people she did it to.
And trying to spin it as some double standard feels like its missing the point, as opposed to reflecting on what she did and trying to make up for it.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I still think the biggest problem with Wanda is that they started off with her willingly working for actual Nazis, then switching to Ultron, and ultimately the impetus for her turning on Ultron is "Ultron's even crazier than we thought and wants to actually destroy the entire world".
Despite that, the only times she actually faces tangible consequences (or that it's even brought up in a meaningful way) is for something that isn't really her fault at all and is meant to evoke sympathy. Everything else she suffers are emotional consequences in the form of losing people around her, which is not only deeply unsatisfying, but Wandavision just demonstrates that Wanda facing emotional consequences just makes her more likely to do terrible things.
Genuinely I feel like they could have fixed it by having Wanda and Pietro be mind-controlled into joining HYDRA instead of going out of their way to say they volunteered (thanks Whedon...) because if you take that initial "they willingly worked for two separate obvious supervillains" out of the way, everything else becomes much more palatable.
Marvel/Disney are going further in their quest to bring back all the Marvel properties udner their creative and legal control, seizing the moment that old streaming right agreements run out to claw back the shows that were made when they needed/Wanted to partner with outside distributors.
All the defenders' series will cease to exist on Netflix at the end of the month:
These are Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Punisher and The Defenders.
Also seems to apply to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.:
https://screenrant.com/marvel-agents-shield-show-netflix-removed-leaving/
Lots of speculation what will happen next. Will those shows be 'upgraded' to canon and appear on Disney+ (or Hulu)? Maybe they will also pick and choose stuff they like and make sure that the rest will not be broadcast anymore, which is also part of the speculation for example for Iron Fist and Punisher.
Edited by SlavetoTropes on Feb 14th 2022 at 5:58:19 AM
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Given Wanda's character in the comics, I feel like they've been setting up a Fallen Hero arc for her.
Everything she does just seemingly makes things worse for everyone around her, intentionally or otherwise.
Wouldn't be shocked if she decided being a hero just isn't for her and just wanted to get her "perfect" life back at any cost.
Naturally puts her at odds with Strange.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.What I find particularly interesting regarding the discourse between Marvel characters is that people really like to paint characters as all the way good or all the way evil, depending on who they like, and they often contrast other characters to make their point. As the Trivia page for the MCU as a whole points out, a lot of people who really hate Wanda tend to be big Tony Stark fanboys, and vice-versa. And I've definitely seen people clash between fans of each character on Twitter, particularly where Ultron is involved.
To me, I always felt like it's odd how people do that, given how every character in the world is clearly supposed to have glaring flaws, but still does good things overall. I dunno, maybe it's just because I don't feel strongly for Wanda nor Tony, but it feels like the discourse/worship of every character is a little bit nuts.
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."This is literally every piece of media ever. People are always going to champion their favorites and demonize anyone who opposes them, usually because they relate to the characters in some shape or form or see them as some form of escapism and live vicariously through them.
So obviously anyone who opposes them is "wrong". It doesn't help that because these are superheroes, we're naturally supposed to assume that their actions are supposed to be the "correct" one as opposed to the supervillains.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
True, it is every piece of media ever. But I find the discourse more interesting in these huge franchise worlds like Marvel and Star Wars, mostly because we jump between many characters over different time spans, to the point where you question who the "main character" is.
For the Infinity Saga, a lot of people considered Iron Man to be the main character. Yet, there's a ton of films where he doesn't show up and isn't the focus. And now that Iron Man is gone for good, who do we consider the "main character" now?
I think the ambiguity of who to focus on in a franchise really helps fuel the tension regarding which characters are right and wrong respectively.
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."Based on that MoM trailer, I'm about half expecting a Heroic Sacrifice from Wanda now. That bit of her complaining about the unfairness in how her and Strange's "rule-breaking" is received struck me as a Heroic Suicide flag.
It's what characters like Wanda do. They off themselves in the most virtuous way possible, so that they can be "redeemed" and change the tone of conversation surrounding them. Redemption Equals Death is basically an escape hatch to write out a character in the most heroic possible way and sidestep having to actually deal with the fallout from their worse actions or the nuances of a complicated character.
And since Marvel has such a clear disinterest in dealing with those things, I can't help but think they're angling for the lazy out.
"Johannesburg? Westview? Why are we talking about insignificant little trifles like those? Wanda died SAVING THE MULTIVERSE. She's the greatest possible hero that could ever exist, who did the greatest act of performative goodness that could ever be done. Who the fuck still cares about Johannesburg?!"
Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 14th 2022 at 6:32:02 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
Well the MCU started with Tony. He got the ball rolling, so it makes the most sense that people saw him as the face of it.
But yea, with both him and Steve out of the picture and Thor off doing his own thing, there's no real central figure anymore in the MCU.
Peter and Strange are the closest things given the former's connection to Tony and just how much influence the latter has in the universe at large.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I think at the end of the day, it's because of what Kate Bishop once said: it's all about the branding of characters' actions.
Wanda gets viewed in a negative light because WandaVision makes it explicit that the Hex is not good, and the effects the Hex is having on people are shown to be terrible in multiple episodes. Several scenes purely exist for that purpose (see the scene where Vision temporarily snapped Norm out from under the brainwashing, or the scene where he went off-script and found that neighborhood where everyone was basically frozen in time and stuck doing the same repetitive motions on a loop). Darcy, Jimmy and Monica spend the entire show trying to get Wanda to stop, they only disagree with Hayward because he wants to do it violently (and it turns out he's trying to kill Wanda in order to cover up his own crimes). And people actually come close on two occasions to getting Wanda to take the Hex down only for Agatha to interrupt them (Vision's attempt is interrupted by Agatha sending over Bohner as the fake "Pietro", while Agatha personally steps in to drag Wanda away from Monica).
Clint spending five years as a serial killer doesn't get that same negative framing in Endgame and Hawkeye because there's no explicit onscreen depiction of extreme violence (aside from that Endgame scene which is no more violent than your average MCU fight scene), and the general tone of Hawkeye is pretty lighthearted. Let me put it another way: Ronin kills people with a sword, wearing a dark and edgy outfit, with sad and depressing music? That's the framing/narrative telling you it's bad. Both Hawkeyes (Clint and Kate) maiming / killing people with bow and arrows, wearing bright and heroic costumes, with cheerful music? That's the framing/narrative telling you it's no big deal, even when the kills are kinda disturbing (like those who got shrunk by the Pym arrows).
The lighthearted tone of Thor: Ragnarok completely drowns out the dark implications of some characters' actions. And I am not talking about Odin being a revisionist who covered up his past war crimes. I am talking about Valkyrie being an indirect mass murderer who spent centuries rounding up innocent people and sending them to die in gladiator battles. She faced no consequences, is never confronted about it by anyone, and gets made King of Asgard at the end of Endgame. And the Hulk clearly enjoyed killing these unwilling slave gladiators. Hulk and Valkyrie are powerful individuals who are doing these things of their own volition. The only defense the Hulk even has is probably him having the mental capacity of a child since Banner is not in control. Because of the lighthearted tone of Ragnarok, audiences are inclined to overlook that. The audience would probably question their love for the Hulk and Valkyrie if Korg and the other gladiators were depicted as being scared to death thinking about their inevitable fate in the arena (rather than as a bunch of joyful guys to hang out with).
Okey Dokey!You can not liking the writing around it, but don’t misrepresent what happened. Bruce wasn’t involved until the twins went after him and Ultron telling Tony he’ll need to catch Banner makes no sense if the goal was targeting the incapacitated Avengers. At best the plan was setting Hulk off and leaving him to rampage without a clear target, but that would still make Wanda culpable in what happened in Johannesburg.
Edited by Cross on Feb 14th 2022 at 9:56:28 AM
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Yea basically. Its pretty hard to overlook Wanda's actions when the implications and consequences are made abundantly clear, and its that much more jarring when she's still framed as a sympathetic hero and gets to live her life.
Like, if they wanted people to unambiguously sympathize and side with Wanda, then maybe don't show how badly her actions are negatively affecting those around her.
Hell, they had an out when it was implied that Wanda wasn't even aware of what she was doing, but by the halfway point she's fully aware of what she's doing and intended to keep up the charade for as long as possible and only relented when she realized how much she was making the citizens suffer under her.
So she's entirely culpable; you can't really justify intentionally brainwashing an entire town, just because you were grieving.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Feb 14th 2022 at 9:50:16 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Edit:I just reread your original post and I think I missed the point. Your point was more that from the perspective of an average citizen, that incident would be blamed on her despite the fact that it was Crossbones that chose to suicide bomb himself. I can mostly agree with that point. Sometimes, no good deed goes unpunished. I rescind my original post.
Edited by Ohmknight on Feb 14th 2022 at 6:23:10 PM
The Final Name