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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#139626: Feb 8th 2022 at 4:25:41 PM

I'm just reminded of the original Batman films, where the actors playing the villains would often receive top-billing over the actor playing Batman. That would never happen today unless it was an explicitly villain-focused film.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 8th 2022 at 7:25:56 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#139627: Feb 8th 2022 at 5:05:51 PM

He Who Remains isn't so much a villain as he is a walking Info Dump-slash-big winking teaser.

@Synchronicity - You are not alone in saying that. Loki felt more like the TVA show - ultimately designed to introduce Kang and the concept of the Multiverse - it just happened to feature Loki.

Listening to a guy we've never met before sitting behind his desk, while the two protagonists literally take a seat so he can dump exposition for 30 minutes? Not my idea of a a season finale. It just made the whole show seem like a six hour trailer for upcoming phase 4 projects which most likely won't even feature Loki.

I think the big problem with the Disney+ villains is that they’ve mostly been held back until an 11th hour reveal, so they’ve had this feeling of showing up then being dealt with really quickly. Kingpin and HWR didn’t appear until the last episode, Agatha’s reveal was with an episode or two to go, and Sharon’s wasn’t until the very end.

@PizzaDog11 - The saving grace of Agatha that the others don't have is that she was introduced relatively early on in the show, and while many could guess the twist or figured it out ahead of time, it also works to have it that Agatha put on this whole act as the nosy neighbor so that it would hit Wanda hard when she discovered her neighbor was someone who wanted to do terrible things to her because of something Wanda didn't know much about.

The other problem is that they’ve kind of been relying on the audience’s knowledge of these characters, which definitely varies. Sure it’s a huge deal to find out Kingpin or Kang was behind it all… if you know who they are already. Within the context of the show itself though it doesn’t actually mean much.

I think the two issues are related, and the villains have largely suffered from the need to have a “big reveal” near the end of the season, giving the villains very little screen time to actually develop within the context of the show. I’d much prefer the way Kingpin was done in DD, or Kilgrave, where they get time to establish themselves as a threat rather than coasting on meta reputation.

Yep, the way Fisk and Kilgrave were revealed in Daredevil and Jessica Jones worked effectively. With Fisk, we don't see him, but we can infer enough about him from things like the fact that Wesley is insistent that people not say his name, and saying it scares the sociopathic John Healy enough to immediately kill himself upon giving it up to Matt. Already, we get the picture that this man is someone who's incredibly dangerous. It actually is such that when we see Fisk in the flesh at the end of the third episode (right after Healy dies), we know a lot about how he works. Then episode 4 serves to start developing Fisk, even humanize him to a degree. He seems almost like an ordinary guy on his date with Vanessa, then we see why he's so feared when he kills Anatoly with that car door.

With Kilgrave, it was something similar. We get flashes of his hand, and we can hear his voice, during the first episode. And we're shown what his powers can do through him making Hope kill her parents. The second episode keeps him in shadow, but has that scene where he takes over a family's apartment. The third episode finally lets us see him in the flesh when Jessica sees him right after she saves Simpson from jumping off the roof.

Luke Cage also did its villain intros effectively for arguably everyone save for Diamondback. Of course, there was no twist or anything, so Mariah, Shades and Cottonmouth were introduced right away and let the dialogue establish their characters. Bushmaster's intro in season 2 was the same thing, as we get that cool scene of him killing Nigel before taking a few clips of bullets from Nigel's guards to show off his enhancement.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 8th 2022 at 8:07:22 AM

Okey Dokey!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139628: Feb 9th 2022 at 1:00:17 AM

Ya know a fun thought, if we ever do like another WW 2 Cap movie we could lean more into the weird science and pulp stuff.

Ya know the first movie is pretty grounded for the most part cause the MCU hasn't fully transitioned into the full super so it be pretty fun now that such stuff is more accepted we could go all in on the craziness.

All that Hellboy/Wolfenstein crazy-ass science war machines and occult sorcery cults, and plus appearances by WW 2 era superheroes like the Invaders which include the original robot Human Torch and his sidekick Toro along with Namor, WW 2-era Wolverine, and an immortal Nick Fury (Jesus when was that guy born?).

The Captain Carter episode of What If did lay more into that since we got stuff like a WW 2 mini-mecha Iron Man suit and Red Skull summoning a Cthulu-esque monster.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 9th 2022 at 1:10:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139629: Feb 9th 2022 at 1:50:05 AM

In Raimi’s Spider-Man movies, four of Spidey’s villains are written as former friends of Peter (Norman, Otto, Harry, and Curt [though he didn’t become a villain yet]), even though in the comics only two of those were depicted as once friends with him.

Not sure I'd call Raimi Otto or even Raimi Norman Peter's friends. At best, he just knew of them in his personal life and barely interacted with them.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139630: Feb 9th 2022 at 5:33:02 AM

[up][up] I always thought it would be cool if they retconned Heinrich Zemo to have been secretly loyal to HYDRA during World War II, and we would get to see some of the atrocities he committed in the forties, and some of the decades afterward. It would be one hell of a reveal for Helmut Zemo, and could lead to some interesting character development.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#139631: Feb 9th 2022 at 5:43:01 AM

Or just have him be a plain old Nazi. It's not like the Nazis weren't horrifically evil.

One former poster a while back once noted that it was kind of bullshit that the MCU portrayed HYDRA as somehow worse than the Nazis. It kind of downplayed the true horror of Nazi Germany.

Note that the comics HYDRA didn't have this issue because they were full blown Nazis too. Red Skull, Wolfgang Von Strucker, Heinrich Zemo...Nazis all.

Edited by M84 on Feb 9th 2022 at 9:45:20 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139633: Feb 9th 2022 at 11:23:34 AM

Though I don't really know his work, I'm sure he will be a worthy addition to the project.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#139634: Feb 9th 2022 at 11:42:54 AM

He has done a lot of musical theater, including John Laurens/Phillip Hamilton from Hamilton and the main guy from the In the Heights movie.

The legend has returned.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139636: Feb 9th 2022 at 11:46:13 AM

Man. Between getting Charlie Cox and Andrew Garfield back, on top of the Rogers: The Musical thing in Hawkeye, it looks like Kevin Feige really likes going to plays, huh?

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 9th 2022 at 11:46:26 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#139637: Feb 9th 2022 at 11:53:00 AM

How many MCU stars are accomplished singers? Like, if we had a musical episode, which characters would be able to appear and contribute?

Robbery Since: Jul, 2012
#139638: Feb 9th 2022 at 11:55:02 AM

So apparently, Steven Soderbergh thinks there's no sex in super-hero movies.

His criticism was considerably milder than what we've heard from other non-super-hero-film directors, as he doesn't accuse super-hero films specifically or genre films in general of destroying the film industry, but he does seem to feel that super-hero films aren't grounded in reality like the films he likes to make (subject to opinion, but fair), and one of the things he cites as an example of their lack of grounding is that it doesn't appear that anyone is having sex in super-hero films.

I'd say this is less of a criticism and more a declaration of personal taste, but objectively, I dunno what super-hero films he's seen, but while there isn't much in the way of explicit sex scenes in super-hero films, there are a lot of super-hero films with implied sex.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#139639: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:02:46 PM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139640: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:06:49 PM

[up][up] In fairness, not every MCU film has a whole lot of room for gratuitous sex.

Like, where are you gonna fit a lovemaking scene in Civil War, Endgame, Shang-Chi or Winter Soldier?

I will say I'm glad that Sodenburgh didn't just jump on the Marvel hate bandwagon, since it would be pretty dickish for him to do after elevating the Russos' careers.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 9th 2022 at 12:08:26 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#139641: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:07:39 PM

I'm fine with keeping awkward sex scenes out of superhero media, but I do think you could make a fair point that there is a lack of intimacy, romantic or otherwise, and this is why many of their canonical romances fall flat.

Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 9th 2022 at 3:08:16 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139642: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:11:36 PM

[up] *cough cough Sersi and Ikaris cough*

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139643: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:12:40 PM

[up][up]I agree with that. [up]It's an especially apt example, because their 'first sex scene' was so hyped but their relationship as a whole was [pbbbbbbbbbbbbbt]

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#139644: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:19:35 PM

Which is strange because the other romances that do not have much focus have a lot more chemistry. Makkari and Druig come to mind.

The legend has returned.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139645: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:19:45 PM

[up] I felt more invested in Druig and Makkari than anything Sersi and Ikaris ever did. Phastos and his husband were great too though.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#139646: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:21:47 PM

This means we need a superhero sex scene stat

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#139647: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:22:34 PM

So apparently, Steven Soderbergh thinks there's no sex in super-hero movies.

Really?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#139648: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:23:32 PM

not a superhero tho

he's deadpool

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139649: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:24:02 PM

[up][up][up]The Boys (2019) here to fill the niche of gross super-sex.

I think it also comes down to the actor/acting choices (or as the kids call it, 'does X fuck?'). The MCU protagonists overall are written to be fairly family friendly, so I never get the sense that they're boning offscreen or something.

Edited by Synchronicity on Feb 9th 2022 at 2:24:18 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139650: Feb 9th 2022 at 12:24:18 PM

[up][up][up][up] Yeah, I'm gonna have to dissent on that. Sex scenes in movies are notoriously unsexy even in the best of circumstances, I really don't think we need more of them.

I'm of the mind we need to improve the romance as well.

[up] There's also the fact that many actresses in the MCU don't really like being overly sexualized, so I'm not sure if a bunch of lovemaking scenes would help in that regard.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 9th 2022 at 12:26:02 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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