Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I realize this has its own issues, but if I were writing, I would have tweaked it some to make Wanda somewhat less culpable and Hayward more culpable.
Note - This idea is partly borrowed from the arc (I forget if it was called "No Surrender" or "Never Surrender) leading up to Captain Hydra.
Basically, it would turn out that Wanda was kidnapped and put into some kind of Lotus-Eater Machine at a secret SWORD base located in Westview, as a way of getting her to resurrect Vision. However, things then went horribly wrong/right and she ended up taking over the minds of the agents.
Agatha would still be an outsider who pretended to be mind controlled so she could study Wanda and drink her magic juices.
And the plot with Woo, Darcy, and Monica would basically be the same, but with the addition that Hayward was keeping them in the dark about a blacksite he had in Westview.
Not really sure how to explain Fake Pietro though. I guess he could be Nicholas Scratch.
That could have been good.
Unfortunately, it's kind of the nature of the genre to have superfolk throwing superpowers at each other.
It was the MCU. It was the MCU. It was the MCU all along.
Edit - Thinking a bit more about my idea, that would lose the pathos of Wanda going to Westview because she was going to settle there with Vision. And I wouldn't want to lose that.
Honestly, I kind of think maybe the only thing that really should have been changed was have Monica at least attempt to arrest Wanda, and for Wanda to basically say "I'll kill you all if you try to touch me" before leaving.
Edited by Hodor2 on Feb 8th 2022 at 4:01:04 AM
In regards to Winter Falcon, there is something that its a rare case of the protagonists and anti-hero's being all so interesting that the actual villain can't really step up.
Sam, Bucky, Zemo, and Walker are all such defined characters with fantastic costumes that Karli and her Flag-Smashers could never hold a candle with their simple masks and simple brute powers.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I actually have something of a thesis about why the MCU has trouble with its villains sometimes. I don't know how well this theory holds up to scrutiny, but it's been on my mind for a while.
In the past, when superheroes had their own contained movies, their villains had to do a lot more of the heavy lifting when it came to furthering the themes of the story or making the conflict engaging. The only characters in those movies back then were the hero, their supporting cast, and the villains. There was a strong incentive to do all of these things well.
In the MCU though, stories are carried by characters who have pre-existing stories from other movies interacting with other characters who themselves are informed by their own movies. Being a long form, ongoing story, you just have to nail those core dynamics, flesh them out and keep them interesting from film to film in order for each movie to be effective. The villain isn't as vital to the core appeal of each film. It's how the heroes interact with each other and feed into this larger world that's important. So the villains can sometimes slip into a more strictly functional role in the script. They exist to be the thing to be fought.
Now, I still think the best MCU movies do use their villains in compelling ways, but I don't think the incentive to nail their villains is quite there to the extent that it might be in other superhero stories. Like, if you look at the Dark Knight. That movie is carried by the Joker. His worldview and his presence seep into every aspect of the story. Watching Batman fight the Joker, physically, mentally, and philosophically, is why you're watching the film.
Kaze ni Nare!![]()
I think part of that is that there’s a de-emphasising of the hero-villain RELATIONSHIP which seemed to be more integral to pre-MCU movies. There are certainly times when it has been done well, but overall I think with bigger worlds and more supporting super characters to work with, this has taken more of a back seat. There’s only a handful I can think of where the villain is well developed AND their relationship to the hero is developed and feels important rather than just someone to stop because they’re doing bad things
Not sure whether this will stand up to analysis either, but it came to mind for me.
I recall how in Unbreakable Elijah directly names We Used to Be Friends as a common trope between superheroes and supervillains, something that is now rarely seen in the MCU.
How common is that in comics though
It does happen. But is it the most common?
Forever liveblogging the AvengersCommon enough that every hero has at least one major enemy that used to be a friend of theirs in backstory, or an ally/sidekick/supporting character turned evil, etc.
It's one of the big villain types (alongside Face–Monster Turn / Superpowered Evil Side) that's common in comics but not really present in the MCU.
Theirs also Peter and Harry Osborn/Green Goblin II.
![]()
Nah I always though that Mags and X was more Friendly Enemy than We Used to Be Friends. They don't agree but are still pretty courteous and affable to each other.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 8th 2022 at 3:48:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Do we really count Bucky? His "evil" is through brainwashing. He's legit a decent guy outside of it that I hesitate to even call him an Anti-Hero.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I actually think this is a sign of Character Development on the heroes' part. When they are starting out, sure, they need the villain to be someone close to them to get them motivated. It has to be personal for them.
Eventually they don't need things to be personal anymore for them to be dedicated to being heroes. The villains don't need to be someone they have personal connections with for them to be motivated. The fact the villains are endangering innocent lives is all the motivation they need.
Disgusted, but not surprisedFor my part, I think the MCU's "villain problem" is massively overstated (particularly since mid-phase 2). But to the extent it exists I think it was brought upon by the fact Marvel movies are often very hardwired to the pysche of the main hero so the villain could be perfunctory to just aid that internal journey. This isn't, of course, a required outcome of that approach (Raimi's Spider-Man movies were also incredibly linked to the main hero's internal woes and also had some of the best villains ever) but it's the source of much of it.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."What's really interesting is that in big crossover films, not every villain is a personal foe for every hero. For example, Thor probably didn't harbor any personal resentment towards Ultron besides "Oh, he's a crazy robot that wants to kill everyone. That's bad, we need to stop him". Meanwhile, Captain America clearly only sees Loki as just a bad guy that needs stopping and nothing more, compared to how personal it is for the other guys.
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."![]()
Even if the villains have gotten better over time, I still definitely get the sense that they aren't usually the appeal of these movies. There are exceptions here and there (like Infinity War and the Spider-Man movies) but it's a general rule of thumb.
Like, Ego in Guardians 2 is a pretty good villain. Russel plays him well, and he's very important to the movie's themes and Starlord's development, but I don't associate the movie with him like I associate Thanos with infinity war, Ock with Spider-Man 2, or Ledger's Joker with The Dark Knight.
Edited by GNinja on Feb 8th 2022 at 12:26:58 PM
Kaze ni Nare!

Hmmm. I do actually like the double reveal idea, as it really plays into the "trauma and grief come to life" theme. But at the same time, how else would Wanda have become the Scarlet Witch if she didn't have an older, more experienced magic user to further torture/teach her about who she is, and how to apply herself via introducing the Darkhold?
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."