TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#139201: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:39:43 PM

It was more a sort of cascading result of Edgar Wright famously having no idea how to write women (though I'm told Last Night in Soho rectifies that to some extent but I haven't seen it). The story goes Wright wrote (ey) Janet out completely: she was apparently just dead in his version, the "stuck in Quantum Realm" thing was Peyton Reed putting in a backdoor to bring her up in a sequel and primed Hope for more of a heroine than a love interest.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139202: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:39:57 PM

[up][up] Also, I'm willing to bet that COVID may have indirectly killed Chadwick Boseman, since so many hospitals filled up with unvaccinated morons, and thus prevented proper cancer treatment.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jan 27th 2022 at 12:40:38 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#139203: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:42:19 PM

It’s fairly likely that hospitals being crammed did contribute to his deteriorating health, but I would caution on calling the hospitalized “morons” since many are exposed even after precautions (and back then there wasn’t a vaccine yet.)

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139204: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:44:10 PM

[up][up][up] Oh man thats so fucked up.

Just killing off the only female founding Avenger like that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139205: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:44:21 PM

[up][up] Yeah, fair point. Not everyone in the hospital is a moron.

[up] Yeah, I know that Wright is a talented filmmaker and that the Executive Meddling he got from the Creative Committee was bullshit, but getting Peyton Reed instead may have been a blessing in disguise if he wasn't going to bother using Janet at all.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jan 27th 2022 at 12:46:28 PM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#139206: Jan 27th 2022 at 12:47:31 PM

Also, I'm willing to bet that COVID may have indirectly killed Chadwick Boseman, since so many hospitals filled up with unvaccinated morons, and thus prevented proper cancer treatment.

I hate how much sense that makes. sad

It’s fairly likely that hospitals being crammed did contribute to his deteriorating health, but I would caution on calling the hospitalized “morons” since many are exposed even after precautions (and back then there wasn’t a vaccine yet.)

Okay, that's a little more forgiving.

More specifically, seems like she is in the "Pro Vax, but Anti-Vax Mandate" camp.

Question: if my family is skeptical about taking the vaccine because they don't like the idea of taking what is apparently a prototype and they'd rather wait for a be-all, end-all, definitive vaccine, does that make them anti-vax?

RE: Edgar Wright killing Jan:

OOOOF. That's messed up. Now Peyton Reed is looking more and more like a godsend.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Jan 27th 2022 at 3:48:58 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139207: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:01:06 PM

Its pretty bullshit for multiple reasons especially since they only went with Scott anyway because of the whole never live it down thing with the slap Hank is unfortunately saddled with.

So Janet would have just been killed off purely as a byproduct of them not wanting to deal with Hank despite the fact they could just not do or make any mention of the slap.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#139208: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:01:22 PM

Question: if my family is skeptical about taking the vaccine because they don't like the idea of taking what is apparently a prototype and they'd rather wait for a be-all, end-all, definitive vaccine, does that make them anti-vax?

It’s a form of it, yes, speaking as someone with relatives who are like that. At this point the vaccines have been tested so much over the past years that the risks can truly be marked as minuscule, and “one definitive vaccine” is unlikely to show up soon considering the virus mutates and will have to be accommodated for that much like yearly flu vaccines.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139209: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:03:02 PM

[up] Yeah, that seems about right. So many variants of COVID just make it impossible to make the catch-all end-all vaccine for everything. Really, I'm just going to believe the doctors who actually know their shit.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139210: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:09:50 PM

He doesn't like that Hope was created to effectively replace Janet as Wasp I think.

Hope did in a different continuity in the comics, so she was created for the MCU.

We did still get Janet in any case and i do like Pfeifer as the older Janet.

The story goes Wright wrote (ey) Janet out completely: she was apparently just dead in his version, the "stuck in Quantum Realm" thing was Peyton Reed putting in a backdoor to bring her up in a sequel and primed Hope for more of a heroine than a love interest.

Thank Goodness for Peyton Reed then.

Edited by Cortez on Jan 27th 2022 at 5:14:51 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#139211: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:10:23 PM

[up][up][up], [up][up]:

Oh. Well. I'm feeling awfully boned right now. sad

Actually, a relative of mine got COVID while in North Carolina last year, but they're miraculously fine and COVID-free now.

But they still don't want to take the vaccine because they listen to David Icke who says it's some kind of way for the government to track us or something. (I don't know all the details because they're too crazy, but should we take this conversation to the pandemic thread?)

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Jan 27th 2022 at 4:10:34 AM

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#139212: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:12:55 PM

Its also a form of 'Moving the Goalposts' and trying to sound 'reasonable' to not get the poke. There are many discussions of this in the COVID thread in the On Topic Forums

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#139213: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:19:23 PM

Edgar Wright is a very talented filmmaker and the executives bearing on his neck was a disgrace, but he's one of those "very good artist but can't write 50% of the human populace on earth for shit and that's somehow just a minor flaw". In the comics realm, Alan Moore has the same conundrum where he's capable of writing all these fantastic and diverse characters but the moment a woman shows up his skills start to vanish at lightspeed.

When these reports that Wright was going to throw Hope and Janet under the bus came out, a lot of people thought they were corporate hit-jobs aimed at a writer, but if you look at Wright's filmography closely they aren't a surprise at all. Simon Pegg, Wright's most consistent creative partner, famously said Wright's "achilles heel" was writing female characters. Just off the heels of leaving Ant-Man, he did Baby Driver, which features a grand total of two female characters of significance: a psychotic sexspot bank robber and a saintly, pristine waitress, both of which characterized by their effect on male characters rather than by themselves (the former for being sexy and then dying to motivate the villain and the latter by representing the main hero's innate goodness).

In Wright's defense, as I mentioned, he seems to be trying to do better as his latest film was female-centric, but that seems to be a more recent development.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 27th 2022 at 1:20:44 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#139214: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:24:04 PM

I haven’t seen Last Night in Soho, but reactions I’ve seen to the film regarding its plot and women characters seem to be mixed between “Wright’s made some progress, good for him” to “this feels very ‘local man wants everyone to know he’s learned what sexism is’.”

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 27th 2022 at 1:24:29 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#139215: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:25:21 PM

[up]x3: Noted. I'll take my conversation over there from now on.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139216: Jan 27th 2022 at 1:30:43 PM

[up][up] I want to see it if only because I like it whenever Anya Taylor-Joy is in The '60s, plus the fact that I don't think I've seen too many Edgar Wright films. But I'll keep that criticism in mind when I do watch it.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#139217: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:02:11 PM

I’ve always been confused, I think, by why writers like Wright say they have trouble writing women. What exactly is holding them back?

Oh God! Natural light!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#139219: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:22:02 PM

A lot of writers (not just men writing women, I see it with women writing men a lot too) have this bizarre preconcieved notion that the opposite sex is some kind of alien species they cannot get into the headspace of or understand the motivations of, and don't want to even bother trying if it's doomed to failure. So they either exclude them from the work entirely or write them as shallow, function-based roles like love interests, villains, or background elements. Sometimes with a "what I wish they were like" fantasy element, too.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jan 27th 2022 at 5:24:56 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#139220: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:30:10 PM

It's basically Write What You Know taken to extremes. And to be fair there are differences in how the different genders think and there definitely are differences in how society treats them and as such the experiences they will have, but at the same time it's not to the degree that they should have immense difficulty writing them. That's what research is for, and the research is often as simple as asking someone what their experiences are.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#139221: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:32:05 PM

There's this tendency of society to see women as completely alien and foreign creatures, the ol' "Men are from mars and women from venus" (i.e they are from different planets entirely). Writers showcase that in this "but how do write women" because they (consciously or not) assume they're unfathomable creatures from a whole different world.

[nja]

Edited by Gaon on Jan 27th 2022 at 2:32:26 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139222: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:35:49 PM

I don't see how that's such a big problem though. If the actor and the director have a good symbiotic relationship, I would think the director could just write a general idea of what the female character is supposed to be, then get some feedback from the actress on how to make it more accurate to how a woman would actually react in that scenario and re-write accordingly. Is that so difficult?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#139223: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:41:14 PM

Yes. Actors and actresses often have very limited input in whatever the writer and director are writing. They deliver the material and put their own spin on it, but there's a general culture that an actress walking up to a director/screenwriter and going "listen I think you write female characters like absolute dogshit and we should work on that" is either just gonna get ignored or blacklisted and they're all aware of that.

The cast is usually on a lower pecking order than the director. For that sort of thing to work the director has to usually deliberately go out of his own to seek female input.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 27th 2022 at 2:42:11 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#139224: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:45:00 PM

There's whole generations of people, including most of the people active in film today, who come from a mentality that people of other sexes are so intrinsically unknowable that there's no way to fully empathize with them. With men, especially, there's a tendency to think of the other sexes solely in terms of how they relate to themselves, uncomfortable thinking outside those lines.

Gender roles run deep in America, even now.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#139225: Jan 27th 2022 at 2:45:12 PM

This is seen a lot of times in works with The Smurfette Principle, with the male characters getting a wide variety of personalities (the fierce one, the cold one, the funny one, etc) and the lone female character’s personality is just “the girl”.

Some male writers can improve from this. Compare the variety of women characters in Rian Johnson’s later films like The Last Jedi and Knives Out, to his earlier work like Looper where he seemed capable of only picturing women as mothers, sex workers, or mother sex workers. But it takes effort and listening to feedback rather than just coasting on one’s prejudices like typical.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 27th 2022 at 2:45:36 AM


Total posts: 186,763
Top