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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#139051: Jan 19th 2022 at 12:22:09 PM

Semi-random question. (How) do Daredevil and Echo communicate?

Text-to-speech app?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#139052: Jan 19th 2022 at 12:27:10 PM

Yeah, in retrospect that was a kind of stupid question. Which makes sense because I saw someone asking it on Reddit.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139053: Jan 19th 2022 at 12:28:52 PM

I assume Matt communicates with her the same way he does with every pretty woman he meets. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139054: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:32:22 PM

So with douchebag Joss Whedon’s self-destruction in his recent interview over his work in Justice League, any thoughts looking back at his contributions to the MCU?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#139055: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:38:06 PM

Whether we want him to or not he had a huge impact. The films were always somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but they got far more so after The Avengers (2012), for better or for worse. It is in fact one of my biggest problems with Ultron, I feel it could've stood to let tension build at times. On the other hand it worked wonders for Guardians of the Galaxy.

He maybe an asshole, but I've always felt he was talented. I thought the first Avengers film was wonderfully done at playing the separate characters off each other and developing the team.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 19th 2022 at 8:12:50 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#139056: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:43:48 PM

Agreed.

In this case, I'm willing to separate the work from the man. The original movie is too damn good (the culmination of 5 years worth of movies, and the first big superhero team up on film) to throw out.

I still like AOU as well, but I'm not gonna try and convince anyone who hates it otherwise.

Simply put, Don't Shoot the Message, even if you hate the messenger.

One Strip! One Strip!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139057: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:45:06 PM

On the other hand it worked wonders for Guardians of the Galaxy.

I'm not sure Whedon's style influenced James Gunn that much. Gunn was already doing his own thing with his script work and indie movies.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#139058: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:46:09 PM

I was going for the comedy specifically, but I will agree they're still stylistically different.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 19th 2022 at 5:46:25 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139059: Jan 19th 2022 at 2:53:22 PM

As far as Whedon's work on the Avengers movies, I've already grown sour on the first film in hindsight. Whedon doesn't know how to write Cap, his version of Loki is completely inconsistent compared to the other movies' depictions, his cinematography is garbage (yes yes, many Marvel movies are derided for their cinematography, but it feels especially noticeable here), and the snarky humor is a lot less funny than I remember it. I don't know how much of it is because of Age of Ultron making Whedon's flaws more apparent or just the consequence of the film coming out when I was 14 and I'm now seeing it with different eyes ten years later.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#139060: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:03:28 PM

What specifically bothered you about his writing of Cap? It's been awhile since I've seen it.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139061: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:05:41 PM

What specifically bothered you about his writing of Cap? It's been awhile since I've seen it.

Whedon makes Cap an obnoxious "old-fashioned" type. Y'know, very stern, a stick in the mud, grumpy, and hates cursing. It's tonally clashing with the depictions in his solo films and the last two Avengers movies (all written by the same people) and just reads like Whedon taking an uncreative writing decision (it's funny cuz he's an old guy from the 40's, haha).

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#139062: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:09:50 PM

Ironically it sounds like he's more like Ultimate Cap barring the xenophobia and being a jarhead.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 19th 2022 at 3:14:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#139063: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:12:53 PM

I didn't mind that as much, but I do agree it is somewhat of a difference. He's still recognizably Cap in my mind. If he had made him Ultimate Cap then I would have had problems. Although it appears some people feel he is like Ultimate Cap...

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#139064: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:15:35 PM

In the comics Echo can read lips and speak without accent. (This is because artists and writers struggle with portraying sign language on the page)

In the MCU Echo isn't quite that abled.

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#139065: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:18:15 PM

He may have been leaning slightly more in that direction, but he was nowhere near as bad as Ultimate Cap. He just felt kind of unused to the way the world has changed. Ultimate Cap is just a self-righteous asshole.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#139066: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:20:47 PM

The no swearing thing is funny to me because everybody immediately starts mocking him over it and he admits it slipped out. And then he swears later and Fury roasts him for it.

It doesn’t read as Cap being old fashioned as much as he has a more professional picture in his mind than the Avengers actually are

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139067: Jan 19th 2022 at 3:46:32 PM

It just feels like a bad joke that doesn't jive with Markus and Mc Feely's handling of the character.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139068: Jan 19th 2022 at 4:09:27 PM

As a guy mostly unfamiliar with Whedon's other work, I gotta say I'm not super passionate about his contributions to the MCU, but it's nonetheless something we can't ignore entirely.

The first Avengers movie did have some flaws (i.e: inconsistent characterization, bad CGI backgrounds), but it was made to be little more than a dumb popcorn flick that nevertheless succeeded in culminating all these separate heroes into one world, so I give it a pass.

I liked Age of Ultron when I saw it in theaters, but over time I'm starting to see how flawed and formulaic Whedon's style of world-building really was. If the Avengers was a TV show, I think he might've been able to develop the characters in a different way. But as it stands, his contributions aren't really much to be wowed by.

Say what you will about The Russo Brothers and Christopher Markus and Steve McFeely, but at least those guys had the balls to throw curveballs and really challenge the audience with our familiarity with superhero tropes so that the MCU could really grow and expand. I'm pretty sure that that with Whedon, we would've gotten more of the same. Though at the same time, we wouldn't have that familiarity were it not for his initial groundwork.

So in short, I'd say Whedon is necessary stepping stone to get to where we are now, but a really gross looking one covered in moss that we try to avoid looking at more than we have to.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jan 19th 2022 at 4:11:18 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#139069: Jan 19th 2022 at 4:34:54 PM

I still have a lot of fondness for the first Avengers movie, if only because it was the first MCU film I saw in theaters. It's easy to take it for granted now, but this was the film that really proved the concept of the MCU. Having a film that contained heroes from multiple films, fit them all in one story, and have them (mostly) all shine was truly unheard of at the time. It was his idea to have Thanos as the Greater-Scope Villain for the MCU, planning the seeds for the Infinity Saga. For better and worse, Whedon's contributions helped build a signature style for the series going forward.

Age of Ultron... is another story. At this point, the MCU had started to go into different paths, thanks to The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy. AOU was the film that pretty much caused the decline in Whedon's reputation. Beforehand, he was pretty much a Sacred Cow among nerd circles. He made some hit cult shows, and his casting as the director for the Avengers film was tremendous. After AOU, you started to see more open criticism of his work and the problematic patterns in his writing. Natasha is an easy source of comparison. It was arguably Whedon's writing that made her something more than just badass eye-candy as she was depicted in Iron Man 2, but it was also Whedon who wrote a lot of the more controversial decisions for her character in Age of Ultron. I think the film's issues are simultaneously a result of too much Executive Meddling and no one stopping Whedon from his worst excesses as a storyteller.

I have mixed feelings on Age of Ultron, which I feel contains a mix of really good scenes and some pretty terrible ones that overall comes off kind of muddled and unfocused. I never really watched any of Whedon's stuff outside of his Avenger films (except for Justice League and I guess his uncredited rewrites for the first Toy Story?), so I have a very limited view as his skills as a writer. As a person... he strikes me as someone who bought into his own fame and used his reputation to hurt others just to feel better about himself. And judging from his recent comments, it looks like that's not going to change anytime soon.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#139070: Jan 19th 2022 at 4:41:59 PM

I saw some back and forth regarding Whedon's role in Age of Ultron immediately after its release. There were some people saying it was Whedon's fault for the story issues, and there were some people saying it was Feige or Perlmutter's fault for meddling with the story to set up the next movies. Nowadays the consensus is that it was largely Whedon's fault the film had so many writing issues, and the evidence seems to point to Whedon being given *too much* freedom.

Edited by Diana1969 on Jan 19th 2022 at 11:44:09 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#139071: Jan 19th 2022 at 5:44:42 PM

Just finished rewatching Daredevil's third season in my rewatch of all the Netflix shows. I'm glad it at least ended on a satisfying, relatively complete note aside from the Bullseye stinger. I still wish we got more, though.

I'm hoping that, with regard to recent MCU projects, Matt and Fisk's recent appearances set up an actual continuation of the Netflix series, picking up with Season 4 instead of soft-rebooting it; it's a bit of a long shot, between having to negotiate with Netflix for the rights and figuring out how to maintain the show's tone on Disney+, but hopefully the Save Daredevil campaign being as big as it is can push them into it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139072: Jan 19th 2022 at 7:40:30 PM

A soft reboot is far more likely.

They probably want to have their own spin.

Edited by Cortez on Jan 19th 2022 at 12:10:47 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#139073: Jan 19th 2022 at 7:46:48 PM

I'm pretty sure a soft reboot is the best they can do legally speaking as well.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#139074: Jan 19th 2022 at 8:06:26 PM

And let's be honest, I'm pretty sure Feige has zero interest in continuing the story of a series made by a bunch of people who used to obstruct him and his directors at every turn.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#139075: Jan 19th 2022 at 8:12:29 PM

I don't know. Just having Fisk and Matt show up is more acknowledgement than you'd expect for, in your words, the story of a series made by a bunch of people who used to obstruct him and his directors at every turn.

While I think you have a point, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a completely fresh start, I'm not willing to write out the idea of their old stories still continuing in some form just yet.

One Strip! One Strip!

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