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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138701: Jan 7th 2022 at 4:50:11 PM

That's my bet right now, we can have Kang be the main villain of three different stories with varying personalities and competence levels by just having them be three separate Variants of Kang. Hell, I'm expecting Multiverse War to involve DOZENS of Kang Variants, since the entire premise of the war was that it was mostly the Kangs fighting each other.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 7th 2022 at 5:50:55 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#138702: Jan 7th 2022 at 8:34:12 PM

I just hope Jonathan Majors has the acting chops to pull off several distinct versions of himself if it's just him.

The legend has returned.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138703: Jan 7th 2022 at 9:07:42 PM

Better yet, I hope Kang himself is interesting enough so that we don't groan every time it's revealed the one variant we just defeated was Actually a Doombot.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#138705: Jan 7th 2022 at 9:32:04 PM

I have a feeling that the overarching villain of this saga might actually be Kang the Conqueror as a concept... like, there's no one Kang who's the Big Bad, but the threat of him in infinite forms is what the heroes are really trying to solve in a way that's better for free will than the TVA.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138706: Jan 7th 2022 at 9:32:45 PM

It is a thing for Kang to be going against multiple versions of himself.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138707: Jan 7th 2022 at 9:34:16 PM

The Council Of Kangs as a single threat works. There's more than one Kang, but the ensemble of Kangs is the actual threatening body the heroes/Avengers face.

If they go that route, my guess is there'll be one singular Kang villain first in Quantumania to function as an intro to the idea, and then after that point there'll be a set of Kangs who are the overarching threat.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138708: Jan 7th 2022 at 9:36:51 PM

I wonder if we’ll get the Council of Reeds.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#138710: Jan 8th 2022 at 5:09:38 PM

All right, I bit the bullet and watched the trailer for Multiverse of Madness without watching NWH.

And...is it me or does it hit differently (in a good way) than the first trailer for the first DS movie? Probably because it's Sam Raimi running the ship? (Did we eveer learn how we got Sam Freaking Raimi by the way?)

Also, for those scratching their heads about the Gargantos vs. Shuma-Gorath situation, apparently there's an annoying reason for it. "Shuma-Gorath" as a name was conceived by Robert E. Howard for Conan the Barbarian. Yes, Marvel has used Shuma-Gorath in comics and games. And yes, Marvel has done Conan comics. But apparently, using "Shuma-Gorath" as a name could raise some legal issues with the Robert E. Howard estate if used for movies. And Conan the Barbarian, despite being around since 1932, a whopping 90 years now, is still not in the public domain. So anything that has to do with Conan needs to be okayed with the Robert E. Howard estate. And neither Marvel nor Disney have a toehold when it comes to Conan movie stuff.

Basically, you guys know how the Quantum Realm is pretty much the Microverse, but not called that because it might anger Hasbro's legal ninjas? Same thing here. MCU Gargantos is pretty much MCU Shuma-Gorath, but not called the latter because legal ninjas might attack.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Jan 8th 2022 at 2:08:33 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138711: Jan 8th 2022 at 6:45:37 PM

[up] As I'm generally unfamiliar with Doctor Strange mythos, the name change doesn't upset me all that much. I do think Shuma-Gorath does sound cooler, but both names sound fairly Lovecraftian, so whatevs.

I hope that Sam Raimi gets to wow us once again. Even outside of Spider-Man, he's a talented filmmaker, and seeing him get to play in the MCU playground might be an amazing comeback after the admittedly kinda forgettable Oz the Great and Powerful.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jan 8th 2022 at 6:48:50 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138712: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:21:53 PM

I still think the fact that the thing isn't named Shuma, doesn't look anything like Shuma, and - from what little we see of it in the trailer - doesn't act anything like Shuma is good enough indication that it's not, actually, Shuma.

Also, the fact that Marvel has been publishing the character for decades at this point throws that theory that it was a name change due to copyright into doubt. The poster justifies it by saying there's a difference between film and comic book rights, but he's not talking about film vs comic book rights, he's talking about copyrights and trademarks.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 8th 2022 at 7:23:58 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138713: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:25:01 PM

[up] What does Shuma act like? I'm not familiar with the comics, so I don't know what the differences between Shuma-Gorath vs. Gargantos. To me, they both look like some kind of Eldritch Abomination that wants to destroy things.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138714: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:29:03 PM

Shuma is a dimension lord who rules on high over the most powerful realm in existence. He's basically Cthulhu: with all the Cthulhu mythos ideas like breaking down reality around him and so on and so forth. That this monster is more of a random beast for Strange to have a punch up with on the street is an immediate sign to me that it's just not Shuma in the first place.

When he does send avatars to fight against heroes in the normal realm, it looks more like this.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 8th 2022 at 7:29:28 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#138715: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:38:13 PM

Gargantos is just a sea-monster kaiju that's appeared in a total of two issues.

To add some gushing yet not inaccurate details to [up]: Shuma-Gorath is an unkillable, omniscient Lovecraftian horror who leads the Many-Angled Ones (the beings behind the Cancerverse in The Thanos Imperative, which resulted from them killing Death). He is one of the evilest and oldest sentient beings in the universe, with power that makes Dormammu look like an ant — anytime a hero goes up against him, they're facing what can only accurately be summed up as the tiniest fraction of its fingernail tearing through reality. It has been spreading evil since the time of Conan the Barbarian and is responsible for the death of the Ancient One.

And it's not just some mindless monster with Blue-and-Orange Morality. It fully comprehends good and evil yet chooses the latter, and always speaks with grand, Shakespearean dialogue:

Shuma-Gorath: So thou knowest the essence of Shuma-Gorath, eh, Doctor Strange? Aye — evil! Ancient, timeless... patient... evil! And Shuma-Gorath doth know thee.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jan 8th 2022 at 7:39:25 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#138716: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:41:13 PM

I mean when I saw the trailer it certainly looked like Shuma to me. I can't speak for other people, but I thought it looked like Shuma. Whose to say it couldn't be an extension of himself that Strange is fighting?

Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 8th 2022 at 10:42:42 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138717: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:44:27 PM

It definitely looks much more like Shuma than Gargantos, but that's the only similarity between the two.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138718: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:04:59 PM

Here's my primer on Shuma-Gargantos:

I feel like everyone in the 'net is making conclusions a way too quickly about this.

The fact its toy version was called Gargantos could mean it is Gargantos, a Composite Character for whatever eldritch reason, that both of them show up in the movie (it's Sam Raimi, it could happen), or the toylines lying/fucking up as they often do. The fact Strange is fighting him on the street doesn't really mean anything as it could just be a lesser form of Shuma (here's shumie in a lesser form of comparable size actually in the process of throwing a bus like he is in the trailer from Mighty Avengers, vol. 2, issue 3, publishe in 2014). Gargantos for example looks like this, while the creature in the trailer looks like this. The eye is completely wrong (Gargantos' eye is smaller and at the top of his head like a octopus, the creature in the trailer has his eye composing his torso, like Shuma does) and Gargantos doesn't have spikes around his eye (that's, once again, Shuma) and for whatever reason the creature is yellow (which neither of them are) with a green-irised eye (which neither of them has, with Gargantos' being black and Shuma's being red, although they're both green otherwise).

So, in summary, it doesn't really look like either of them enough to make a statement and what we have so far is basically one frame and some shoddy toys. It's virtually pointless to try to make a definitive statement here. Maybe it's neither of them and the creature in the trailer is the Scandinavian Kraken. Who knows.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 8th 2022 at 8:09:23 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138720: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:10:08 PM

I’ll throw it out there that Gargantos is the starter-boss and mook of Shuma as Shuma is the big boss himself.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#138721: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:53:42 PM

I'd also point out that much of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories are public domain in the U.S. because their copyrights were never renewed. Now, whether that includes the first story to mention Shuma-Gorath, I can't say.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#138722: Jan 9th 2022 at 7:32:54 AM

The only story to feature Shuma's name is "The Curse of the Golden Skull" which was first published 30 years after Howard's death.

I've been digging into it with a couple others elsewhere and the general impression we've gotten is that Marvel at least thinks that they have full ownership of the character. Best evidence of that is Marvel vs. Capcom, where Shuma has been used with no sign of any credit to the Howard estate for it. The thing is the Howard estate, much like the Doyle and Burroughs estates, has increasingly relied on trademark to skirt the public domain and has gotten increasingly litigious as they lose more copyrights. So if there is any impact, it's less that Marvel/Disney don't have the rights at all and more that they don't want to even chance a legal battle when they could avoid it entirely by just slapping another name on it.

Plus for a character that's likely just a Monster of the Week they could just Hand Wave Gargantos as a minion or aspect of Shuma or something. There's easy ways around this, basically.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#138723: Jan 9th 2022 at 9:25:12 AM

Trademark law only applies to promotional material. If someone else holds the trademark on Shuma-Gorath, that would prevent Marvel from advertising a film as featuring the character, but wouldn't necessarily prevent the character from appearing.

That's why for a long while you had DC putting out a comic called Shazam about a hero called Captain Marvel: because Marvel Comics has a trademark on the name Captain Marvel, but not a copyright on it.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#138724: Jan 9th 2022 at 9:28:37 AM

I'm rewatching the Guardians duology tonight and dang Star Lords side burns are a good look. There aren't enough cool side burns on protagonists these days.

Also his helmet legitimately looks amazing, and while I wish his duster jacket didn't replace his comics costumes entirely, it does look cool.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138725: Jan 9th 2022 at 10:01:47 AM

They should upgrade his mask with a helmet, have it undergo it’s original look.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/3704286_ann_con_star_lord_3.jpg

It has a really cool Prussian vibe going on.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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