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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138476: Dec 30th 2021 at 7:25:36 AM

I personally was a big fan of Jimmy Woo. I was lukewarm towards him in Ant-Man and the Wasp, but they really made him likeable and cool(ish) in WandaVision. Really hope we get to see him more in the future, maybe as a new-age Phil Coulson or something.

In terms of the string women, I also thought Yelena was pretty cool, and I think Monica is underrated. But I dunno man, Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine still really strikes me. I know she hasn't really done much yet, but she has such a strong presence and looks damn cool.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#138477: Dec 30th 2021 at 7:28:40 AM

[up] Not to be nitpicky or anything but I asked about favorite newcomers introduce this year.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138478: Dec 30th 2021 at 7:43:27 AM

[up] I just talked about how much I liked Yelena and Valentina, so I'd say I'd followed that a little bit. Plus, Monica as a kid in Captain Marvel doesn't really count, so I'd argue she was "introduced" this year.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#138479: Dec 30th 2021 at 7:59:46 AM

This is the year of well-written women in my mind, so it is sort of a tie between Yelena, Echo, Kate, Makkari, and Agatha.

I think I can add Wanda to that mix, since WandaVision finally gives Wanda room to be more central to the plot as opposed to be a benchwarmer who takes a backseat to other characters.

Okey Dokey!
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#138480: Dec 30th 2021 at 8:07:10 AM

The question is about characters introduced this year though, not overall.

The legend has returned.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#138481: Dec 30th 2021 at 8:33:50 AM

Wandavision came out this year though, so adult Monica counts, surely?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138482: Dec 30th 2021 at 12:53:56 PM

Agatha Harkness was a delight. I also liked Johnnie Walker and, if you count him as a "new" character to the MCU, Doc Ock.

Still need to watch Shang-Chi and Eternals.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138483: Dec 30th 2021 at 1:30:40 PM

So...general question about the pre-Disney TV shows. Given the re-incorporation of a few characters in the mainline MCU, I'm wondering which shows are worth checking out? I'm still not interested in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D due to how long and weird it supposedly gets, but I do want to check out some of the Netflix shows and Agent Carter. I'm planning to watch Daredevil in its entirety, but I also keep hearing good things about Jessica Jones and The Punisher.

What I want to know is: are any of the shows required to watch before/during Daredevil, rather than just being optional checkout options?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138484: Dec 30th 2021 at 1:32:07 PM

Defenders is kinda important for Daredevil Season 3.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 30th 2021 at 2:38:23 AM

HBarnill Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
#138485: Dec 30th 2021 at 1:37:40 PM

You don't necessarily have to watch the Netflix shows for canon's sake. They are in a different universe that is a bit similar.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138486: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:02:20 PM

I'd recommend treating the Netflix shows like a single 13-season show, instead of as six individual shows, for the full experience. While it does have low points (Iron Fist S1, Jessica Jones S2) I'd say the package as a whole is still very enjoyable to watch in its entirety and worth the time, even at its lowest.

The watching order is the same as the release order: Daredevil S1 -> Jessica Jones S1 -> Daredevil S2 -> Luke Cage S1 -> Iron Fist S1 -> Defenders -> Punisher S1 -> Jessica Jones S2 -> Luke Cage S2 -> Iron Fist S2 -> Daredevil S3 -> Punisher S2 -> Jessica Jones S3

But if you don't care about that or don't have time to watch them all...

  • Daredevil's first two seasons can be watched standalone, but season 3 absolutely requires Defenders.
  • Jessica Jones' entire series is largely self-contained, and even mostly ignores her role in Defenders, but there's a scene in season 3 that hits harder if you watched Luke Cage's second season.
  • Luke Cage's first season requires Jessica Jones' first season for context, and his second season requires Defenders.
  • Iron Fist's first season is fairly standalone but makes more sense if you've watched Daredevil's first two seasons. Iron Fist's second season requires Defenders. Luke Cage's second season also helps but is not mandatory.
  • Defenders itself is ideally watched after all five prior seasons, but you can get away with just Daredevil's two. Iron Fist helps provide a little more context, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are largely unneeded as long as you're vaguely aware of the characters from them.
  • Punisher requires Daredevil's second season to get started, but after that is fully self-contained.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Dec 30th 2021 at 5:08:07 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#138487: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:06:51 PM

Yeah, Defenders is the only show necessary for Daredevil. While it follows up on plot points from Iron Fist, you can probably get away with just reading the first season's wikipedia page.

As for the others... well, if you've heard good things about them, I'd say just watch them. While that other universe stuff [up][up] hasn't been confirmed or denied yet, whether it's canon or not shouldn't prevent you from enjoying them. I'm doubtful Cloak and Dagger will ever get mentioned again, but I still liked getting to explore all the cool Voodoo stuff.

Even the worst of the shows have something vaguely worthwhile to offer. Except, of course, for Inhumans and Helstrom, the latter of which actually has been officially decanonized. Both are garbage.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Dec 30th 2021 at 2:07:49 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138488: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:09:28 PM

[up][up] Thanks for this. Having everything in detail is really helpful.

And I know the shows won't be canon or anything, but I would like to at least see why everyone likes them so much.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Dec 30th 2021 at 2:09:37 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#138489: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:16:11 PM

The Netflix shows, while they definitely have their low points, still hold up to this day. I'd recommend them to anybody.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138490: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:17:10 PM

[up][up]If you're that interested then I definitely recommend watching them all if you have the time. Then you don't even have to worry about which shows require which.

I'm in the process of rewatching them all myself. Currently in Jessica Jones' second season, and while I consider it the worst of all 13, I'm still having fun.

As for the shows' canonicity... Vincent D'onofrio says the Kingpin in Hawkeye is the same Kingpin from Daredevil and not just some hard-reboot version, for what it's worth.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Dec 30th 2021 at 5:18:48 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#138491: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:36:38 PM

Since Marvel seems interested in bringing back some pre-Disney+ show characters, I'd really like them to bring back Quake from Agents of Shield, liked her character and actress a lot. Could still have the show be her origin as Broad Strokes canon as well, it's only really the last bit that conflicts with the main MCU. Ghost Rider was also really good, so I wouldn't mind him returning either.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#138492: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:39:10 PM

Unfortunately, Agents seems to be the unloved stepchild of the TV shows so far. Which is ironic, given how many times it crossed over in it's early days.

That said, I would love it, of course. Though it would have to retcon it's last two Season out of existence in order to fit, no way around it.

Which is how I would've prefered it to end anyways, tbh. Season 5 was the perfect ending.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138493: Dec 30th 2021 at 2:55:25 PM

Here, I made a flowchart for both watching all the shows in order, and for watching just specific ones.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mcu_netflix_0.png

Solid line means mandatory viewing, dotted line means not mandatory, but helpful. Note that while there isn't a direct line connecting them, obviously you'd wanna watch Luke Cage or Iron Fist's first seasons before their second seasons. You just gotta watch Defenders in-between.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#138494: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:07:05 PM

Yeah. The irony of Agents, the show that tried the hardest to tie itself to the MCU being the one that seems to have become completely non canon is frustrating.

And it seems to be entirely due to the shit between Feige and Permulter.

I assumed they wouldn't really do it due to the series popularity, but it seems that's not nearly enough.

I figured they'd at least reveal it happened somewhere in another branch of the Sacred Timeline, but nope.

They may not have officially given the word (and they might not for now) but AOS has more than likely been Exiled from Continuity.

One Strip! One Strip!
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#138495: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:20:11 PM

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude, but do we really have to go through the mopey "oh, what a shame, too bad it can't work" thing every single time the show gets brought up? Seriously, every single time someone mentions it there's five proceeding posts lamenting how it's not canon. Can we not just enjoy the show?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#138496: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:25:01 PM

....You know what?

You're right.

It happened. It sucks. But that's how it is.

Maybe something to change that will happen down the line, but for now it is what it is.

...Now, everyone feel free to remember this if I complain about it again. I have an admitted issue with Aesop Amnesia that I've yet to overcome.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#138497: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:27:56 PM

As for the shows' canonicity... Vincent D'onofrio says the Kingpin in Hawkeye is the same Kingpin from Daredevil and not just some hard-reboot version, for what it's worth.

Ehh, sort of. What he said was this:

     Interview 
"I think from my point of view, like a lot of the Avengers stuff, a lot of the MCU stuff, they tried to connect as many dots to the original canon as they can, and some dots are just not possible to connect. And that's what we've done with connecting to Daredevil and vice versa. There's some dots [that] are connected. Like in the Hawkeye show, Fisk is obviously physically stronger and can take more physical abuse. But the key to his being an interesting character, in my mind, will always be the fact that he has this emotional life that grounds him, that makes everything work, as far as I'm concerned.

We can sell that character in so many facets. Story-wise we can sell it, if we keep him based in that emotional life. And I know that the writers, and the producers, and me, and everybody involved in the Hawkeye show, we were all on the same page about that. I have to say that they're very collaborative people and – not only to mention awesome people, very nice – but the producers, like I said, the writers and the directors were all just thrilled to work with so we kept along those lines. And I think that's what will continue to make the character interesting if there's anything next for me to do."

You'll notice that at no point does D'Onofrio actually say that the Netflix Kingpin is canon to the MCU Kingpin. What he said was that Marvel Studios tries to "connect as many dots" to the original 616 Marvel Comics as they possibly can, and have done the same with the DareDevil series. They've connected whatever dots they can to the original Netflix shows, and won't connect the dots that they can't.

So. That means that Netflix Dare Devil is about as canon to the MCU as the legendary Born Again arc of DareDevil (issues 227-233) is. Everyone's taking this as "NETFLIX SHOWS CANONIZED" but all he really said was that they want to retain the emotional core of his performance, to sell the same kind of Kingpin that the Netflix shows gave us, while still changing details such as making him much more powerful.

He's talking about the performance and presentation of his character, not the lore. Because. Y'know. He is an actor and that part of the story is the part that's his job. Lore questions should be directed to writers and producers.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 30th 2021 at 3:29:56 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#138498: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:50:36 PM

Calling a show that ran for 7 seasons an "unloved stepchild" is kinda amusing...

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#138499: Dec 30th 2021 at 3:58:12 PM

That's what I'm here for, Rob. To smack sense back into you when you forget your own repetitiveness.

[up]As Rob demonstrated, it seems to be more about it's connection to the MCU proper then the show itself. It was allowed to do it's own thing but Daddy and Mommy Marvel were often away from home so it never got much attention and when they did come home, AOS had to move it's life around to accommodate them but never really vice-versa.

I haven't watched it too far but I heard things get interesting in the middle of season one so I'm willing to get back into it some day.

The Curse of the Media Backlog is strong with me.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 30th 2021 at 4:01:34 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138500: Dec 30th 2021 at 5:41:00 PM

[up][up][up]Right, my mistake. Even so, it's good that even if the canon itself is nebulous, the characterization and performance is the same, aside from slightly more comic-book-y physics.

Anyway, rewatching Jessica Jones season 2, and I actually laughed out loud when a frustrated Trish said "They're killers! They'll kill again! That's what killers do!" Pretty ironic as of season 3. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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