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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138426: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:09:48 PM

What's cool about Mysterio is that he's a character who can die and return at any point with little explanation without feeling forced. He's a guy who can just say "I Lied" about the time you saw him get his head blown off and you have no choice but to go "makes sense" at the same pace you're wondering if this isn't just a successor talking out of his ass (before swiftly concluding it doesn't really matter).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138427: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:13:20 PM

wild mass guessCloning saga but its all Mystorios

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#138428: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:26:37 PM

I demand that this hypothetical Mysterio war has each main person using the illusion tech to exploit Beck's likeness for authenticity.

I need half a dozen psychotic Jake Gyllenhaals infighting.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138429: Dec 28th 2021 at 5:30:19 PM

Especially if each of them acts differently because of the personality of the one controlling the illusion.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138430: Dec 28th 2021 at 7:16:23 PM

I always loved how Far From Home justified Mysterio's illusions with the staggeringly modern explanation of "many hours of work CGI modeling". It's like, yeah, of course a modern Mysterio's greatest illusions are basically putting the opponent into an immersive 1st-person horror game by holograms projected around them, that makes total sense.

It actually makes a lot MORE sense than some of the older justifications for Mysterio's illusions.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#138431: Dec 28th 2021 at 7:24:01 PM

I feel like Mysterio should show up again but fighting a different character that doesn't have some sort of Spider sense. For some reason, Bucky was the first one to pop up in my head.

The legend has returned.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#138432: Dec 28th 2021 at 7:25:53 PM

As mentioned, there was that time that Mysterio fought Daredevil that ended with Beck killing himself. Maybe not the best way to bring him back, but still... tongue

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#138433: Dec 28th 2021 at 7:33:27 PM

[up]

The Guardian Devil storyline. I've never read it myself, but considering Matt's senses are probably better than Peter's, the fact that Beck nearly drove him insane with his illusions is massively impressive.

To be honest, I don't know if the two of them crossed paths all that much, even though I understand that Daredevil and Spiderman kinda shared a lot of villains prior to Frank Miller taking over.

One Strip! One Strip!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#138434: Dec 28th 2021 at 9:20:22 PM

Personally, I find the trope of "villain keeps faking his death so you never know if what you're fighting is real", aka Actually a Doombot, to be super frustrating and not at all rewarding. As a mechanism for maintaining a Rogues Gallery, it's only slightly more creative than a Cardboard Prison.

With villains like Ultron it's at least understandable because he can literally make a million copies of himself, but I don't like giving heroes hollow or meaningless victories unless they come from their own flaws.

Superman being forced to kill Zod to stop him from tearing the world apart: that is a compelling climax. Spider-Man defeating Mysterio for the eighteenth time only to find out it was an illusion yet again is boring and adds nothing to his character.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 28th 2021 at 12:24:10 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#138435: Dec 28th 2021 at 9:58:30 PM

The Guardian Devil storyline. I've never read it myself, but considering Matt's senses are probably better than Peter's, the fact that Beck nearly drove him insane with his illusions is massively impressive.

A lot of that was Beck manipulating Matt and others (often by proxy) to keep him off balanced emotionally and to stop him just thinking things through. Beck himself avoided Matt as much as possible.

As soon as Matt did stop reacting blindly (ha!!) he pulled the thread very quickly.

Edited by jakobitis on Dec 28th 2021 at 9:59:02 AM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138436: Dec 28th 2021 at 9:58:40 PM

[up][up] To be fair, Mysterio didn't fake his death. He totally died. He just came back from hell for reasons that didn't explained (sorta) for like a decade and a half.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 28th 2021 at 9:59:29 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#138437: Dec 28th 2021 at 10:00:59 PM

[up][up][up]I feel the "actually a doombot" feel better in a series when you can make a chararter appear more, in a movie? no.

Is a issue of movies that villian usally dont last long, there is a reason loki and zemo stand more.

Edited by unknowing on Dec 28th 2021 at 2:01:20 PM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#138438: Dec 28th 2021 at 10:03:26 PM

[up][up]I think it was (Ultimate?) Hammerhead who pulled a similar stunt. He was very definitely dead and killed "on-screen" but returned with the only explanation being: "I died. It sucked. I came back." (could be wrong on the exact wording.)

Edited by jakobitis on Dec 28th 2021 at 10:04:01 AM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138439: Dec 28th 2021 at 10:09:10 PM

It wasn't quite like that. Mysterio coming back from hell was, very briefly (and I mean very briefly), a big deal. In the arc Tobias brought up, he was all "I have been returned from earth for a reason beyond your petty games of supervillainy, I just don't want you fools tarnishing my name!" By all appearances, he was about to be used in a plot where he went from evil to True Neutral and was setting up some big mystical story.

And then everyone just forgot about it, until some editor somewhere must have remembered it was a thing and Marvel decided to tack the plot onto the recent Kindred story (nearly twenty years later) that totally wasn't the original intention.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 28th 2021 at 10:15:52 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138440: Dec 29th 2021 at 5:13:15 AM

I remember thinking about Mystorio would be the hardest villain to adapt to live action,since his illusions are kind of cartoony and would require copious amounts of CGI to pull off,they succeeded by all accounts.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#138441: Dec 29th 2021 at 6:06:58 AM

I can just imagine the writers meeting. "Ugh, Mysterio is going to be such a pain, he needs so much CGI. And how are we going to adapt him to a modern audience?" "What if he literally uses CGI?"

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138442: Dec 29th 2021 at 6:23:07 AM

I like he still has the fishbowl.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138443: Dec 29th 2021 at 6:25:40 AM

In-universe, some member of the Mysterio team had to spend hours sculpting and animating zombie Tony Stark rising from the grave just to torment Peter Parker, and I think that's fantastic.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 29th 2021 at 7:26:24 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#138444: Dec 29th 2021 at 6:56:50 AM

Well, this is my beef with MCU Mysterio: the amount of on-the-fly reprogramming that would have been required to make his drone illusions believable. I realize it's Stark tech and thus effectively magic, but the effort to ground his powers in real-sounding technology pushes against my suspension of disbelief. Not that I have any beef with Far From Home; it's a great film. This is just a quibble.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138445: Dec 29th 2021 at 7:00:09 AM

Not really, you just treat the illusions more like a video game than a movie. The target can wander around the simulated environment and interact with the illusions to trigger certain events to happen.

jdeo1997 BLADE Pathfinders from Orion–Cygnus Arm Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
BLADE Pathfinders
#138446: Dec 29th 2021 at 7:09:40 AM

[up][up][up]I'm pretty sure they made the model for fun due to how they hate Tony long before they whole Mysterio-Spidey thing

Edited by jdeo1997 on Dec 29th 2021 at 12:43:23 PM

Attachments are not the problem, Indifference is. Keelah se'lai
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138447: Dec 29th 2021 at 8:11:50 AM

[up] If that's the case, man I bet the whole team was pissed in What If...?, having spent all that time animating that scene in great detail only for Tony to become a zombie for real and thus make their machinations worthless.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138448: Dec 29th 2021 at 11:06:28 AM

Th Guarian Devil storyline actually kicks off with Mysterio poisoning Murdock's senses without him realizing, so that is the main reason his schem goes as far as it did. When the effects of said toxin start to wear off Murdock starts to work out what's going on.

Superman being forced to kill Zod to stop him from tearing the world apart: that is a compelling climax. Spider-Man defeating Mysterio for the eighteenth time only to find out it was an illusion yet again is boring and adds nothing to his character.

Apples and grapes. The core root of Mysterio's character is that you never know what's real and what's illusion with him ("expect the unexpected with Mysterio!" as Stan Lee's famous billing of the character went). It's in his nature to fuck wth spidey and the audience to the point you have no idea what's real and what's not, which is why the constant "how much of this actually happened?" turns suit him well.

If you know what happened to Mysterio (including if he died or not) the character has lost his point, IMO.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138449: Dec 29th 2021 at 11:10:04 AM

I love how the cartoon had him teleporting all over the place,which could be hand waved as Flash Step or he owns a portable teleporter

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#138450: Dec 29th 2021 at 11:10:31 AM

[up] The point of the comparison is that Superman had a character-defining moment by killing Zod rather than trying to imprison or depower him, which would inevitably have led to him coming back and wreaking even more havoc. This sort of thing is compelling.

As for Mysterio, I find that sort of "Is he actually defeated? We'll never know!" thing personally irritating. I'm not saying it's bad writing or anything; it's just frustrating to me. Comics go to such extreme lengths to preserve their Rogues Galleries that it pushes suspension of disbelief.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 29th 2021 at 2:11:46 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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