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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138351: Dec 24th 2021 at 10:30:48 PM

[up] Eh, I'm leaning more towards the "coincidence" part. As cool as both women are, I feel that Nat and Wanda weren't exactly that close. If anything, Clint was the Avenger Wanda connected with the most.

Makes me wonder how a potential reunion between the two of them would work out post Hawkeye and WandaVision.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#138353: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:05:55 AM

Basically, he says Scorsese has never made a comic book movie and therefore has no right to judge.

The legend has returned.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#138354: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:07:29 AM

...Sorry, Holland, but that sort of argument doesn't pass with me. 2/10, maybe a 3/10 but just because you're an adorable babby.

Not a single one of us on this website have made professional media. Does that mean we have no right to criticize it or make our judgements of it?

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 25th 2021 at 11:11:20 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#138355: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:10:01 AM

It's weird that everyone focuses so much on an offhand comment Scorcese made four years ago when other directors have said way worse things.

Coppola straight up called superhero movies evil.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138356: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:10:33 AM

Who knows more about making a movie,an actor or a film director?

I get what Tom is saying though

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138357: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:14:23 AM

Scorsese gets more attention for his statetement because he's still a living legend still making acclaimed movies. Coppola (and most of new hollywood) hasn't been relevant in decades.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#138358: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:24:53 AM

Scorsese is a proponent of what's called Auteur Theory. The idea behind Auteur Theory is that the director is the single creator of the film. The director is the only person who makes a movie, and the movie is the product of the director's immaculate vision. Actors, writers, editors, sound design, these are all just tools that the director uses to weave his masterful vision into reality.

According to auteur theorists, directors are artists and the film is the director's canvas. No one else makes the film. No one else matters. True cinema is one director's artistic vision realized through the medium of film.

When Scorsese says that Marvel movies "aren't cinema", he's talking about the fact that they aren't the product of a single director's vision. There is no auteur; no single brillant visionary mind that makes the entire film happen, who is 100% responsible for every single moment you see on the screen, and without whom the movie never could have been possible.

He dances a bit around the subject, but that's what he's saying. He name-drops other famous auteur directors and basically says, "When a movie by THESE GUYS gets made, it's a true cinematic experience. But Marvel movies are market-researched and audience-tested. They're made to be enjoyed by an audience."

Auteur theory, it's worth noting, has been criticized as being egotistical schlock utterly disrespectful of the countless talented people whose efforts go into a movie. There's been some backlash against the idea that the director, and only the director, creates a film.

Meanwhile, what Tom Holland said is that he's worked on Marvel films and he's worked on Oscar-worthy films, and the process of making them is exactly the same. The only difference between making Hero Man 4 and making Tears of a Soul or whatever is that the blockbuster has a bigger budget. But the production process? Totally identical.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 25th 2021 at 11:25:40 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138359: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:29:44 AM

It should be noted that Michael Bay is an auteur himself.

Everything he makes a movie it's noted as a distinctly "Bay" film the same way one would describe a film by Scorsese.

The only difference of course is Bay's movies are considered maligned shlock while Scorsese's is regarded as top tier Godlike shit.

So yeah Auteur Theory is pretty bullshit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#138360: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:32:36 AM

I still feel that the fixation on Scorcese’s “how dare he say superhero movies aren’t cinema” distracts from his more important claim that he would be fine with them if there was more variety to film releases than just 90 percent superheroes.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138361: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:35:49 AM

I feel like that's more of an audience issue since people only ever turn in for superhero films anymore.

Though that can get turned around on the movie industry themselves for not making or advertising enough interesting flicks to actually get people to watch.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138362: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:38:39 AM

I still feel that the fixation on Scorcese’s “how dare he say superhero movies aren’t cinema” distracts from his more important claim that he would be fine with them if there was more variety to film releases than just 90 percent superheroes.

A false claim. Just because superhero films make lots of money doesn't mean that's ALL there is. There are less than 10 superhero films released every year, compared to hundreds of non-superhero movies.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#138363: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:44:25 AM

It's weird that Holland waited till now to say anything. Either it took him a long time to come up with a good enough retort, or Scorcese's words resurfaced for some reason.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138364: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:45:43 AM

Or he didn't exalt say that sentence and someone needed the clicks

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#138365: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:48:12 AM

I assume reporters keep springing the question on people associated with superhero movies because it’s a guaranteed click generator

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#138367: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:52:56 AM

Oh, the debate's evolved from Scorsese v. Marvel. Disney letting Guillermo del Toro's followup to his Best Picture winner premiere with a whimper alongside No Way Home is one thing, but it's notable that super blockbuster-friendly directors like Steven Spielberg and Ridley Scott aren't generating profits in 2021 while Marvel is. Sure, there are a lot of factors (nobody wants to see a 2-hour film about medieval rape, movie musicals are not in vogue, blah blah) but still...raises eyebrows.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#138368: Dec 25th 2021 at 11:57:55 AM

Maybe auteur theory was always bullshit, and having a famous director on your film isn't a surefire recipe for success after all.

People have limited money, especially in this economy, and especially in this economy and pandemic state. They're going to spend it to see what they want to go see. And a lot of people have voted in as being more excited for the next big superhero blowout than whatever Ridley Scott's doing now.

It's almost like characters and stories matter more than directors.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 25th 2021 at 11:59:43 AM

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Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#138369: Dec 25th 2021 at 12:03:57 PM

Yeah, it's definitely Journalists trying to bring the question up for easy publicity.

The other option is that Tom Holland took a very long time to think of a comeback to this like George in that one episode of seinfeld, which is funny but not realistic.

This is a thing stoked on by outsiders, really.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#138370: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:13:20 PM

My opinion is that Scorcese is Right for the Wrong Reasons, and it's possible to criticize Marvel movies for dominating the filmscape despite their sameyness without also accusing them of being the death of all true art or placing an artificial ceiling on what makes for true art or not.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#138371: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:33:51 PM

I do agree that Scorsese actually makes great points with his criticism of Marvel, and he has more than enough experience to justify his claims. He's also not just complaining about them for the sake of complaining like Ridley Scott or Francis Coppola, so I honestly respect his opinion.

And while I do kinda agree with Tobias that the whole Auteur Theory thing doesn't really work in today's world (heck, it was already flawed in previous decades when you had guys like Alfred Hitchcock and Stanley Kubrick being abusive assholes to the women they casted in their movies), I can understand why he believes in it. Because Scorsese is a legitimately good person and great director who tells fantastic stories, and he grew up understanding what it was like to be a director during his younger years.

I do think that the discourse about this debate lasting this long is a bit dumb however, and that we should really move on.

Also, Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#138372: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:36:11 PM

I still want a Scorsese-esque gangsta film about Marvel’s criminal underground like Kingpin and Bullseye.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#138373: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:36:39 PM

So, changing the topic to something more festive: can we all agree that Hawkeye (2021) was ultimately a better Christmas installment in the MCU than Iron Man 3?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#138374: Dec 25th 2021 at 2:45:35 PM

Considering that Iron Man 3 didn't even release during Christmas Time, but in freaking May, I'd agree with you for that reason alone.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#138375: Dec 25th 2021 at 3:18:50 PM

Iron Man 3 took place at Christmas time?

I remember he crashed in some snow but I thought he just landed somewhere that's colder

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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