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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#138301: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:01:34 PM

It has always seemed to me that for plot purposes, adaptations are treated as a distinct multiverse.

So the Shuma Gorath of the MCU multiverse may be a different character from the Shuma Gorath of the comics multiverse.

While the Mojo of the multiverse of the X-men cartoons is also different from that of the comics.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:03:54 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#138302: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:04:42 PM

And apparently part of the reason she backed off was because she didn’t want to push Colleen Wing out of the MCU.

Aww, this gives me hope for the future. I hope she gets to reprise Colleen Wing some day.

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HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#138303: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:08:27 PM

Yeah, I've generally taken the approach that there are different multiverses, perhaps within some big omniverse. So the comics multiverse is one thing, the MCU one is another, the Spider-Verse yet another. It's not that much more convoluted than what we have already, and I think it works better overall.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#138304: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:15:22 PM

> So the Shuma Gorath of the MCU multiverse may be a different character from the Shuma Gorath of the comics multiverse.

For some reason I could see Shuma's characterization in the MCU being similar to Bill Cipher's since they're both a similar sort of entity that is a multi dimensional threat

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#138305: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:24:55 PM

There is very little practical way to have Marvel’s comics and their media adaptations crossover, so I just file their multiverses as separate. Things like America Chavez being unique to the Multiverse are true to their own medium but not to others because it’s be too much hassle to have MCU Chavez/Marvel Rising Chavez/616 Chavez be literally the same character and have to keep her storyline across all of them consistent.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:25:24 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#138306: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:32:26 PM

Some characters are easier. Shuma-Gorath for example is a very nebulous character who doesn't have much of a knowable character (let alone character arc) regardless of media (indeed being unknowably eldritch is most of his appeal) so he'd be pretty simple to state that he's literally the same guy everywhere. He's just a ancient, ponderous eldritch evil with a verbose and grandiose speech pattern wheneever he does speak and whatever consistencies do arrive can be explained with "That was but a fragment of Shuma-Gorath".

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#138307: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:42:03 PM

Yeah, Shuma is basically a Plot Device Villain. He can appear in any kind of story, fight any hero of every caliber and both lose and win whenever it fits the story without looking inconsistent.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138308: Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:43:49 PM

Shuma Gorath being the only one in the multiverse is not the same thing as, say, the way DC's Mxyzptlk being the only one in the multiverse.

There are tons of different incarnations of Mxyzptlk. DC recently established that every single iteration was the same being, popping into different continuities and playing himself with a slightly different personality, for funsies. But Mxyzptlk also has a specific dimension he comes from that's independent of all that.

There's just one Shuma. There's not such thing as "different continuities" for Shuma. It's just Shuma. Period. Shuma has a specific dimension he's from, and that dimension is Shuma. Shuma and the Chaos Dimension are inseparable.

Complicating this is that, when it comes to guys like Shuma, Dormammu, etc, Marvel doesn't really mean "Multiverse" in the same way, say, DC does. In Marvel, it's typically just another word for the dimensional matrix, and multiverse narratives in the sense of "different continuity versions of X characters meet" - like with Miles Morales or America Chavez - are rare. Shuma being a multiversal entity is simply Marvel translating his role as top dog in the dimensional matrix to how it logically apply to a multiversal concept, since they appear to have just shrugged their shoulders and mashed the two things togethers.

Basically, its a Sure, Why Not?. Marvel isn't really concerned with answering the question of "wait, is MVC Shuma the same guy?" To them, he's a multiversal entity, so the fans can knock themselves out theorizing while they go back to the eldritch horror stories.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 23rd 2021 at 3:45:09 AM

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#138309: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:09:27 PM

The idea of the comic and adaptation multiverses being different things is an interesting idea... except Spider-Verse kind of goes against that, as it establishes that Spider-Man (1967), Marvel vs. Capcom, and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon are part of the comics multiverse... not only that but, while not appearing directly on-panel, Tobey and Andrew are established as being part of those events as well, which creates a direct link to the MCU multiverse, which we know for a fact includes them.

Of course, No Way Home has them act as if this had never happened to them before, so maybe it was a different version of them?

Granted, that might be for simplicity's sake. If the other Spiders had come into the movie saying "Oh, yeah, this kinda thing has happened to us before and we already met because of it", non-comics readers would just be like "wait, when the hell did that happen to them? Is there a Spider-Man 4 that we missed or something?"

Edited by lbssb on Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:19:36 AM

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#138310: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:11:29 PM

Edit:nvm

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:12:10 AM

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#138311: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:18:34 PM

[up]*2 Are you talking about that crossover that made the 80's animated version and -his friends die horribly?

It's honestly a story that I want to forget and not take into account.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#138312: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:22:54 PM

Honestly, this whole conversation reminds me when Transformers tried to claim that there was only one version of characters like Unicron and the Thirteen Primes across the entire multiverse, even though that made little sense when you stopped and thought about it. Like, Unicron would be a dark god of primordial chaos in most continuities and then you had the original cartoon where he was just a robot made by some monkey-dude.

Needless to say, they walked back on that.

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#138313: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:27:46 PM

Speaking of the spider-verse, after death of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends caused the wrath of many fans, they applied retcon in which they said that it was not the original universe, but a similar one, so it could be argued that the animated universes and the comic universe are in different multiverses, while the ones we saw in the crossover were just similar universes.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:37:26 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#138314: Dec 23rd 2021 at 4:44:56 PM

I mean, Dan Slott often times just didn't really know what he was doing. I mean, he claimed that the Spider-Man from Spider-Man Unlimited is the same one from the classic 90s Series, even though they are clearly different.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#138315: Dec 23rd 2021 at 5:18:28 PM

Also, we got two separate universes based on the '67 Spider-Man show. One of them teamed up with Miles and cartoon Ultimate Spidey and one of them made reference to a 2012 meme for some reason.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#138316: Dec 23rd 2021 at 6:20:41 PM

So this should clear some things up regarding the canonicity of the Netflix shows (spoilers for Hawkeye and No Way Home):

Vincent D'Onofrio confirms that the Kingpin in Hawkeye is the same one he played on Daredevil. By extension, we can confirm that Charlie Cox in No Way Home is the same version of Matt Murdock.

So at the very least, Daredevil happened. We'll have to see how or if the others end up coming back.

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Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#138317: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:28:39 PM

So then, it's pretty easy to guess that Punisher has also happened.

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#138318: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:29:47 PM

The idea of the comic and adaptation multiverses being different things is an interesting idea... except Spider-Verse kind of goes against that, as it establishes that Spider-Man (1967), Marvel vs. Capcom, and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon are part of the comics multiverse...

I mentioned Spider-Verse (I also mentioned America). I didn't say there wasn't a concept of a multiverse in the comics.

What I said was that the multiverse and the dimensional matrix aren't really the same thing in the comics, that most of the characters in the dimensional matrix group were not conceived and generally aren't used in narratives that include the multiverse, and that the two have been merged somewhat in recent years but nevertheless they still don't particularly use Shuma and other characters like Shuma in multiverse stories.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:30:47 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#138319: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:42:18 PM

Regarding multiverses and Spider-Verse: Here's something to really make your head spin. (No Way Home spoilers, but nothing that isn't already in the trailer)

No Way Home establishes that the MCU and Sony 'verses share a multiverse. But Spider-Verse establishes that the 616 shares a multiverse with the Sony 'verses; Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield's Spider-Men don't appear on-panel, but are stated to be present by two bewildered Spider-Men confused by why two Peter Parkers look like those celebrities. That means the 616 and MCU are in the same multiverse.

However, the MCU didn't have a multiverse until Loki. The Time Variance Authority were pruning other universes. The Sony and 616 universes couldn't have existed until after Loki and Sylvie stopped the ongoing deletion of the multiverse. The MCU came first. Unless, of course, the 616 got pruned.

That's a bit of a sticking point, isn't it? I mean, is it so terrible that the MCU came first? Well. See. There's this little thing in the comics called Secret War. Every existing universe in the Multiverse got smashed into each other, wiping them all out and killing everyone in every universe, everywhere. After that happened, Reed Richards took over and created new universes to rebuild the Multiverse.

So if the MCU came before the 616, then it already existed during the Incursions. Which we know it did, because the Incursions wipe out the Sony 'verses too, but the Sony 'verses still exist during No Way Home. So at some point in the history of the MCU, the Incursions leading up to Secret War will wipe out the entire universe.

But here's the biggest twist: The MCU is numbered as Earth-616, just like the 616 is. So the MCU and 616 share a multiverse, and yet are both the same universe within that multiverse.

Isn't trying too hard to make sense of multiversal bread crumbs fun?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:45:00 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#138320: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:47:42 PM

I just take it as it comes.

Because when the subject of multiversal mechanics is broached, my sparing human intellect instantly assumes the most ingratiating posture of surrender imaginable.

Edited by Bocaj on Dec 23rd 2021 at 10:47:59 AM

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138322: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:52:21 PM

I thought the MCU being Earth-616 was only in Far From Home, as part of the cover story Mysterio made up.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#138323: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:57:20 PM

Into The Spider-Verse lists its combining universes (on the Collider’s screen) as 1610, 616, 65, and so on. Make of that what you will. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:57:30 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#138324: Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:57:33 PM

When was the MCU called 616? Wasn't that just some bullshit Mysterio came up with, or did I miss something?[nja]

I'm honestly fine with the sheer chaoticness of the multiverse. That thing gets blown up and reconstructed every other week at this point, and that's without considering the Fridge Logic implications of it being, you know, infinite (i.e. since Thanos usurped the One-Above-All/God in one timeline, there has to be a bunch more where he wasn't stopped by his past self and remains supreme ruler of every universe). It makes no sense If you actually think about it and never will. Might as well sneak in a few Kang Wars every now and then.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Dec 23rd 2021 at 7:59:43 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#138325: Dec 23rd 2021 at 8:05:16 PM

Also, there isn't any inconsistency with multiple different universes using the same numbered designation for themselves, as long as those designations are made-up in-universe and those universes haven't made contact with each other to discuss standardizing the numbering system.


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