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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#137201: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:12:02 PM

I'm of the opposite mind. Whether or not Khonshu is real should be a question in the viewer's mind for as long as possible.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#137202: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:18:29 PM

Honestly, I'd just be content to have Oscar Isaac reading those memes out as just a funny side thing. Kind of like when Josh Keaton read all those '60s Spider-Man memes:

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#137203: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:27:22 PM

Doing the whole "is Marc just crazy?" thing really only would have worked in the early MCU. But at this stage, audiences have seen Chaos Magic and time travel and multiverses and much more. Having an ancient Egyptian god (in whatever form the show chooses to define that-they probably won't go the alien route and have Khonshu be more like a extra-dimensional spirit) be real at this point shouldn't be a reveal because it won't be shocking to anyone.

At best, you could do it from the point of view of characters like Marlene, who think Marc is just crazy while we the audience know better. Even if they go with Marc being superpowered in this one, she'll likely just think "oh, Marc's a superhuman. At least that makes sense."

When you've only got six episodes, beating around the bush that way is just going to feel like padding.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#137204: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:33:43 PM

If you're going to play it out in such a straightforward way, why have it be Moon Knight at all?

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#137205: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:35:41 PM

Because Moon Knight is still an interesting character.

"Former marine turned mercenary brought back from the dead by ancient Egyptian god of vengeance who then becomes a vigilante who fights crime while living with DID" doesn't need "or IS he?" tacked onto the end of it.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#137206: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:55:36 PM

I'm of the opinion Marc being ambiguously crazy is something I find a core appeal of the character. Gritty urban vigilantes are dime-a-dozen in comic books, so they need a specific hook to them. Daredevil has his Catholicism, Moon Knight has the lingering questions about his grip on reality. If you remove the weapons-grade Catholicism from Daredevil and the Foucaultian discussions of insanity from Moon Knight they're not far from just being differently-colored-Batman.

Although, on a related note, the character will have a uphill battle in some representation fields. Moon Knight is a white american guy who becomes the champion of a egyptian deity and who has dissociative identity disorder.

There will be debates.

Edited by Gaon on Nov 17th 2021 at 7:55:52 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#137207: Nov 17th 2021 at 7:57:32 PM

Foucaultian discussions of insanity

Ah cripes, not Foucault. Anything but Foucault.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#137209: Nov 17th 2021 at 8:02:12 PM

Don't forget that Marc was also born and raised Jewish. Which as was already brought up, adds a layer of irony to him becoming the champion of an Egyptian deity.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#137210: Nov 17th 2021 at 8:10:35 PM

If nothing else, the synopsis we have so far seems to make it clear gods will be involved.

I just hope (assuming he's in it, which he really should be), they make Bushman less of a caricature. A different last name would be a good start.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#137211: Nov 17th 2021 at 8:11:53 PM

Its interesting that Marc is actually batshit insane but he carries it far differently then well known maniacs like Deadpool and Harley Quinn. Instead of just being loony and wacky, he's more lucid and tranquil, being more of a cold ham.

[up][up] A Rabbi even. It is very akin to the dissonance of Daredevil's own Catholicism but his depravity for violence.

"Of course there's being raised Jewish, and then there's being raised by a Rabbi. My father was the kindest gentlest man I've ever known. But there was never anything kind or gentle in me. He was a man of peace, he hated violence. And I thought that made him weak. A weak man serving an indifferent God. Because those were our stories weren't they? We lost our homes, our land. We were enslaved and escaped into the desert. And from then up till now, we took our licks from practically everyone. My father taught me that it was out perseverance that was our greatest quality as a people. How we never gave up faith in our laws. Our covenant with God. How we could laugh to keep from crying no matter what happened to us. So when I died in Selima, can you blame me for accepting Khonshu's offer? I put aside a God who had let terrible things happen to his people, a God who I never heard, in favor of a God who spoke right to me and promised "Join me, be my son. And together we will get things done."

Moon Knight like DD is hardcore.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 17th 2021 at 8:14:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Loureed45 from The Green Chapel Since: Feb, 2017
#137212: Nov 17th 2021 at 8:40:36 PM

Not a fan of the MCU by any stretch but I just saw Shang Chi and ngl, I really enjoyed it. It helps that it didn't do that Marvel thing where everybody like snarks and wisecracks while almost dying all the time, plus the Kung Fu choreography was pretty dope.

One angry houseplant
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#137213: Nov 17th 2021 at 9:14:24 PM

where everybody like snarks and wisecracks while almost dying all the time

It's a pretty common coping mechanism?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Loureed45 from The Green Chapel Since: Feb, 2017
#137214: Nov 17th 2021 at 9:21:13 PM

I would do the Come and See written by Joss Whedon joke but I shall refrain. But yeah I'll show up to see Shang Chi's next adventure, this movie got me on board for that at the very least.

Is Sam Raimi still doing one of these soon? I like Sam Raimi too, I'll see his effort

One angry houseplant
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#137215: Nov 17th 2021 at 9:23:59 PM

Yeah, Raimi is directing the next Doctor Strange movie.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#137216: Nov 17th 2021 at 10:18:23 PM

You could say Foucault is, himself, like a prison for you.

Foucault is to philosophy what Woody Allen is to film. I'd take Freudian psychoanalysis over anything from that French nonce. Reading him was bad enough, finding out about the rest of his career taints every single thing he wrote.

I just hope (assuming he's in it, which he really should be), they make Bushman less of a caricature. A different last name would be a good start.

Didn't they confirm Ethan Hawke was playing Bushman or am I mistaken?

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#137217: Nov 17th 2021 at 10:34:27 PM

Ethan Hawke's character has not been confirmed yet, though some speculation he may be playing Sun King.

It's probably a given he will not be playing Bushman, who is an African mercenary of unknown origins who led the looting mission that Marc and his friend Frenchie were a part of. Incidentally, some issues have suggested Khonshu originally wanted Bushman to be his avatar (this was before the "Khonshu has been watching Marc his whole life" retcon).

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#137218: Nov 17th 2021 at 10:43:02 PM

It's probably a given he will not be playing Bushman, who is an African mercenary of unknown origins

...this probably shows how little I know about Moon Knight that I not only did *NOT* know that, but I had been under the impression that Bushman was a European for a while.

Ethan Hawke's character has not been confirmed yet, though some speculation he may be playing Sun King.

Who's Sun King?

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#137219: Nov 17th 2021 at 10:51:23 PM

No, in fact the name "Bushman" (which is a grossly outdated term used by white people to refer to certain African ethnicities) is kind of why I'm hoping they make some changes to him.

Like, it's ok if he's a horrible monster of a man, so long as it's clear that's just who he is and not because of generic "Africa is a horrible continent full of senseless violence" bad writing. The easiest way would be to put other mercenaries from various African nations in his mercenary unit and have them all think he's a wacko.

Sun King is a recent Moon Knight villain with pyrokinetic powers, bipolar disorder and an interest in Amon Ra, the Egyptian sun god, which makes him an interesting foil to Marc. He also briefly leads a cult, and as Hawke has mentioned he is basing his character on real life cult leader David Koresh, there is some speculation he's going to be playing him.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#137220: Nov 17th 2021 at 10:58:09 PM

No, in fact the name "Bushman" (which is a grossly outdated term used by white people to refer to certain African ethnicities) is kind of why I'm hoping they make some changes to him.

Right, I think I remember this. There was this movie I watched a while back called The Gods Must Be Crazy that was about some San tribesman thinking a Coca-Cola bottle was an offering from the gods, and they kept calling him a "bushman." Didn't realize it was considered a slur but I guess it should be obvious.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#137221: Nov 17th 2021 at 11:47:21 PM

To be clear this is a different guy from Bushwacker right?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#137223: Nov 18th 2021 at 12:14:13 AM

Also different from Bushmaster.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#137224: Nov 18th 2021 at 12:14:39 AM

They should form a Bushleague.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#137225: Nov 18th 2021 at 3:29:50 AM

Foucault is to philosophy what Woody Allen is to film. I'd take Freudian psychoanalysis over anything from that French nonce. Reading him was bad enough, finding out about the rest of his career taints every single thing he wrote.

This is neither here nor there but I'll tell you I was never particularly convinced at the accusations (at Foucault, Woody Allen's case is well-documented). Seemed to me a lot of hearsay and sociopolitical hitjobs directed at him. We can discuss this more in P Ms if you'd like given this is evidently off-topic.

Anyway, more to the topic: for Moon Knight's rogues gallery is a bit abysmal. He has a lot of interchangeable-evil-knockoffs (Midnight, Black Spectre, Shadow Knight) and his most clear defined arch-enemy is Bushman who has problems of his own. I do think Sun King is his best Evil Counterpart type, but I quite like Stained Glass Scarlet (with her Giallo-esque stylings and mystical connections to MK, plus being female) and The Profile (as his name indicates he's The Profiler on a supernatural level, and I think this fits like a glove for a hero with a myriad of mental woes).

Edited by Gaon on Nov 18th 2021 at 3:30:07 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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