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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Edited by MatthewWayne on Nov 13th 2021 at 8:29:51 AM
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."That said, emotionally speaking the role which Uncle Ben's death has in Peter's character development is largely taken up by Iron Man. They pay lip service to "comes great responsibility" in Civil War, but Peter only actually learns that lesson in Homecoming, and he learns it from Tony. That's really all the Ben stuff is: lip service. In terms of actual impact, the character doesn't really exist.
I really never understood where the "people know who this character is already, ergo they shouldn't exist" idea came from, but MCU Spidey clearly took listened to that portion of the fanbase to an extreme degree. As a result, Peter's story is now so heavily reliant on Iron Man to replace the void Ben's absence left in his characterization that - now that they presumably are finally introducing Ben in the tv show - they'll probably need to do a little finagling so as to not mess up the continuity regarding Peter's personality.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 13th 2021 at 8:59:09 AM
My best guess is that it came from people who didn't like the fact that The Amazing Spider Man retreaded the origin story again. I recall a lot of people weren't really onboard with them doing the Uncle Ben stuff again because "We've already seen this before". And you can tell that the film tried its hardest to avoid being a carbon-copy of the first Raimi film, especially when they tried to have him give the "With great responsibility" without him actually saying those words.
I'm fine with them glossing over it in Civil War, but I feel Ben should've been brought up a lot more in Peter's solo films, in more of an offscreen presence sort of way. It should not have taken until the Marvel Zombies episode of What If to hear his name in the MCU for the first time.
I feel like the lesson Peter learned in Homecoming was subtly different from the usual great power spiel
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThe irony is that Ben never gave that speech or any variation of it in the comics.
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Yeah I think that's mostly right. No one's literally like "Uncle Ben should never be a thing", it's more that after ASM1 and in the light of Raimi's near-perfect adaptation the MCU had to either do it right or not do it at all. Them choosing not to do it, to skip ahead a bit while implying it still happened because obviously it did, was novel at the time. Focusing on the superhero mentor/student relationship between Tony and Peter was fine at least in a streamlined sort of sense (contrary to popular belief Uncle Ben's ghost doesn't hang over Peter's life the way that, say, Batman's parents hang over his), though it has admittedly gotten comical how much the movies have avoided that old ground. Freshman Year should hopefully be a long-overdue addressing of that.
And yeah, a lot of Peter Parker's journeys are about him having to learn all the ways he has to be responsible with his power, it's never been a one-shot kind of deal with him. Uncle Ben and Iron Man can both be his mentors on responsibility in very different ways and for very different parts of his life. The sentiment I have seen from a segment of the Hatedom, that Tony Stark needs to be proven to have been a failure of a mentor that has strayed Peter off the right path, is just as ludicrous.
Edited by Watchtower on Nov 13th 2021 at 12:31:15 PM
Tony's reaction to that is (internally) "boo, this kid is gonna agree with Cap if I'm not careful."
This does make you wonder, would Peter have switched sides midway through the airport battle if Steve or one of his allies had managed to stop him long enough to explain what's really going on regarding the whole fracas with the Accords, plus the whole threat of Zemo and those Winter Soldiers? Because I feel Peter wouldn't be too thrilled to find that Mr. Stark is backing a document that will negatively affect Peter (because Peter would be forced to divulge his secret identity, leaving himself and his loved ones open to retaliation from criminals or from Thaddeus Ross). I could see this happening in that brief exchange Steve has with Peter, or the exchange that happens when Peter engages Bucky and Sam inside the terminal. (Also, Peter wants to protect people, so I think knowing that Steve and his allies are trying to prevent a horrible injustice—Bucky getting framed—and stop a bad guy would be enough to tell him Mr. Stark's judgement might have gone astray)
Edited by dmcreif on Nov 13th 2021 at 12:58:08 PM
Okey Dokey!
In the comics, that is exactly what happened... with the extra wrinkle that Tony already convinced Peter to reveal his identity to the world. And that is part of the reason One More Day happened. yaaaay...
Edited by lbssb on Nov 13th 2021 at 9:58:57 AM
Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks MarathonDo the Accords apply to Peter if he’s not an Avenger?
He was apparently fine with the idea post Civil War when he was super into the idea of becoming an Avenger
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThe movies were definitely vague on the Accords. What we do know was that one could be targeted for possessing advanced tech (hence why the Pyms were targeted in Ant-Man and the Wasp), enhanced get denied access to counsel and subject to human rights violations in black sites (Everett Ross laughs at the idea of Bucky getting a lawyer, plus the treatment of Cap's teammates on the Raft), and those that aren't locked up are, as Sam put it, "LoJacked like common criminals" (Vision had a tracker implanted on him by Infinity War).
Okey Dokey!Going to nitpick at least a couple of things there, Everett laughing at the idea of Bucky getting a lawyer is probably less to do with the accords and more to do with Bucky being a confirmed murderer with a record spanning decades who went on the run after HYDRA fell instead of turning himself in.
They never actually bring up the lack of trial in the movie, it's entirely possible that the Avengers were being held on the Raft until the trial while they gather evidence and that Cap broke them out before it happened. Probably took some time since at least one of them was part of at least two different supervillain schemes and dropped an angry Hulk on a city, since we never see that addressed legally and I'm sure they'd jump at the chance to lump it in.
And Vision had a ''transponder'', not a tracker. It makes perfect sense that an Avenger's communicator would have signal-tracking capabilities and the fact that he could turn it off speaks to the lack of nefarious intentions.
Still correct that the general conditions on the Raft are utterly appalling and that going after people with enhanced tech is nonsense, but some of the other points are reaches.
Edited by Khfan429 on Nov 13th 2021 at 10:32:29 AM
I feel, in my personal opinion, that what we got was a final cut where Tony gets all the emotional beats, but Steve gets all the actual logic and integrity.
Okey Dokey!
Pretty much, and more that steve making the vlaid point is the movie making for them since steve isnt the one for debates, the fact tony pretty much undermine his entire point by going into a revenged rampage really set that out because it kinda prove steve was right for hiding that information in the first place.
What really boggles me is when people misconstrue the stance of Steve and everyone on his side. Their misconception is that Steve was against accountability. When actually Steve, as a soldier, is for oversight, but "oversight with safeguards" (which is NOT what the Accords are). Steve's idea of oversight is one that will ensure the Avengers can be be held accountable...but without compromising their ability to respond rapidly when a crisis happens (since crises like Ultron and even Thanos are the kinds of crises where having to go through bureaucratic red tape would only make matters worse).
There's two things I want to unpack here:
1. Steve and Natasha weren't the only non-HYDRA people aware that HYDRA killed the Starks. I would think there were dozens of non-HYDRA officials in SHIELD and the Pentagon who knew or suspected all along that Howard and Maria were assassinated, simply because the super soldier serum packets weren't found in the wreckage.
2. I feel Tony also undermined his own pro-Accords stance with some of his other behaviors. For instance, his ramblings at the start of Endgame, and the construction of EDITH (basically an upgraded Project Insight) show that he never did let go of the idea that he could put a “suit of armor around the world", despite Ultron being proof of how that turns out.
Okey Dokey!I think it's pretty obvious that Thunderbolt Ross really didn't give a shit about what the Accords were actually about. He just wanted to enforce them so he could legally put the Avengers on a leash and use them as his personal attack dogs to fulfill his political agenda. That's why Steve and the people who stood by them were against the Accords in the first place, since they were created in part by corrupt bureaucrats.
I believe Rhodey and Vision supported the Accords because they were naive enough to genuinely believe that the U.N and Ross actually made them in good faith, whereas Stark only supported them out of guilt, and didn't actually care about following the rules. That's why he presumably pulled some strings to prevent Peter's identity from getting out, and why he was essentially allowed to use his suits to do whatever he wanted (i.e: helping Peter out in Homecoming) rather than when the government says so.
Meanwhile, Rhodey gave up on the Accords when he realized how petty and shortsighted Ross was, and Vision fell in love with Wanda and so didn't care about them anymore.
"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."It wouldn't just be Ross. But all those other despots in power who really don't want the Avengers meddling around in their countries.
You mention Rhodey here, and that actually makes me think his little back and forth with Sam early on could've been the foundation for a deeper discussion about privilege. Because Rhodey and Sam are both black, but Rhodey is privileged whereas Sam grew up working class (mirroring a bit of Tony and Steve, honestly). Rhodey's also a government employee, so the whole bit where Uncle Sam writes his checks could also be influencing his stance.
And Vision, I agree, Vision was naive by virtue of being a baby synthezoid.
Sometimes I actually think Vision's story arc in Civil War should've had him and Wanda in Germany working alongside Steve and Sam to bring Bucky in, rather than Vision guarding Wanda at the Compound. He starts the movie pro-Accords, and this does allow for him to have friction with Steve, Sam and Wanda, but over the course of the movie, he comes to realize just how flawed and corrupt those pushing the Accords are (like Thaddeus Ross), and how they don't actually prevent collateral damage (as seen by how easily "Dr." Zemo was able to get into that secure facility to brainwash Bucky). Then by the airport fight, he starts to go over to Team Cap, which he does in this case by doing something that enables Wanda to get away with Steve and Bucky (maybe he still injures Rhodey, but it's a bit more intentional than "He hit Rhodey by mistake because Sam dodged at the last second"). That starts the character development he had offscreen between Civil War and Infinity War.
Put that another way: if Vision was there on the frontlines in Europe, and saw what was happening (between the police having kill-on-sight orders to use lethal force on Bucky, to the behaviors of both Rosses), he would have quickly realized how shortsighted his support for the Accords was. This could be a secondary reason Tony had Vision stay at the compound guarding Wanda.
Edited by dmcreif on Nov 13th 2021 at 2:57:37 PM
Okey Dokey!

There's also him using a suitcase with the tag "BFP" on it in Far From Home.
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